That's Me In The Corner... - by fett
37637598 on 13/4/2010 at 01:32
Oh no, you've said too much. You've said... enough?
This was very insightful and interesting, thanks for the time you put into it. I agree with Witherflower on that line about seeing behind the beauty we're so oblivious to day by day. I'm gonna read it again tonight and give a better response, this whole thread makes me happy.
Epos Nix on 13/4/2010 at 01:32
Even if you don't believe in the Bible's version of Original Sin, it should be pretty obvious that an event similar to it must have happened along the way. At some point in early man's history there was a defining point where he did something totally and utterly selfish despite knowing that he really shouldn't. Did he eat an apple that God said he shouldn't? Most likely not. The entire story is very likely metaphorical in nature.
Keep in mind also that God's reaction to this is not negative. He says that Mankind has become like those in Heaven, knowing the difference between good and evil. Being expelled from Paradise is most likely entirely metaphor as well. It symbolizes our new view on the world with added concepts of Good and Bad rather than the solace of ignorance we had prior to evolving this new perspective. Imagine what early man must have felt dealing with emotions like guilt for the first time.
The idea that this original sin is handed down to our progeny is pretty much a given as well. Keep in mind that in this context "sin" is merely the knowledge of Good and Evil, and the wisdom to make the distinction between the two. Therefore, it's pretty obvious that we hand this trait down through the inherited intelligence we gift our children. Unlike simpler beings, or even early man, we know how to commit acts of evil AND we know that these acts are wrong. Original sin was merely the moment when this realization was first made and humanity evolved because of it.
Chade on 13/4/2010 at 01:37
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
Unlike simpler beings, or even early man, we know how to commit acts of evil AND we know that these acts are wrong. Original sin was merely
the moment when this realization was first made and humanity evolved because of it.
Evidence please.
Epos Nix on 13/4/2010 at 01:42
Well, I hear dolphins enjoy going on homicidal rampages once in a while. Whether or not they know this is a direct act of evil is anyone's guess. But I would hardly classify them as simpler beings, so I guess the point is moot.
So, no evidence. I'm merely trying to provide a framework for the idea of original sin.
Thief13x on 13/4/2010 at 01:47
Quote Posted by BEAR
A serious question: Have you considered writing a book? I half hope you are already working on one and this is part of your outline or something.
Of course not he sucks at writing;)
Seriously though, I wholeheartedly agree 110%. Ya know there are folks out there that this would resonate deeply with. There ARE good people out there who undoubtedly have had similar experiences to yours regarding the seemingly apathetic nature of the congregation towards your personal struggles. I could honestly read this stuff all day..I would just require a small cut of the profits:cool:
R Soul on 13/4/2010 at 01:51
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
Did he eat and apple that God said he shouldn't? Most likely not. The entire story is very likely metaphorical in nature.
It could be a metaphor for change from a nomadic lifestyle to farming:
Nomads, everything's nice.
Population increases, climate warms up, things start getting scarce.
The wiser people say "whoa, steady on there", and "save some for the rest of us".
The selfish ones say "meh, it's all good".
Then things get so scarce that people are forced to make crops grow, and keep animals on one place.
fett on 13/4/2010 at 02:16
Epos, you exhaust me, but I'm sure there are other folks willing to debate all this with you. I'm only good for debating with people who hold to a literal interpretation of the Torah, so I get pretty lost in all the metaphor that others see in it. There are sections of Genesis 2 that were intended as metaphor or summation, but the rest is and has always been understood by the Jews as literal. You can do with it what you want, but when looking at historic literature, if you don't start from the place the author intended, you're very unlikely to end up where they intended either. Basic stuff. ;)
@Scots. I'll have to go a little further past the end of the OP to answer that. Christie's doubts started with the church I pastored, in that last year or so. She grew up in a very Christian family, went to church all her life etc. We were in everything together stitch for stitch. In 2005 our second son was born and immediately had life-threatening digestion problems. He couldn't eat anything out of a jar, box, or bag and only slept about 15 minutes at a time all night for a year or so because of acid reflux. She was going bonkers from sleep deprivation and I couldn't help much because of my ministry commitments and trying to gig enough on the side to pay the bills. This all added to the decision to quit the ministry. It seemed to us that maybe God was "using" this situation to force us out (as Epos theorizes). When we left Little Rock, she was very bitter toward the people who had failed to help us, both morally and financially, while we were in medical crisis with my son (btw, we kept him off gluten foods for 2+ years and his digestive system completely healed - he can eat anything now). Once we got some distance and realized that it wasn't the people we were angry with, we were able to pinpoint that our disappointment and feelings of betrayal were with God (I was still on the fence about belief at this point). She also had come to the conclusion that despite all the busy-ness, sacrifice, obedience - no one and nothing had been truly changed, including her. So our story is pretty much the same, and obviously we were making these observations together along the way. I'm very fortunate because many guys in my position end up in divorce over this.
It might also be of interest that I didn't simply give up on God or church altogether when we left. We attended a Calvary Chapel here in the Ozarks for about a year, the pastor being a friend who had helped me a lot with some of the more difficult things that happened at my church. I didn't get very involved, just hung in the back, tried to worship, took in the teaching. It came to a point where I was expected to play music, teach, or lead something. I politely declined and it didn't go over very well. In just the year we were there we ended up involved in the drama of someone else's nasty divorce and became privy to all sorts of strife, affairs, and other abuse going on in the leadership. We just left without ceremony because we've had enough of that to last a lifetime. I think this was the final nail in the coffin, where I finally gave up thinking that maybe there was hope for humanity in a supernatural God. It took Christie about 6 months after that to admit to herself that she didn't believe anymore either. Oddly, it wasn't until we both realized our faith was gone that we could really let go of the resentment we felt toward some of the people we'd been involved with toward the end. That REALLY helped both of us to realize that our problem wasn't with people, but with the theology that made them act that way (we've been accused being angry with people A LOT: "Well, ya know, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. You can't judge God by his people." Bullshit. I submit that you can and should if they claim to be different and supernaturally changed by Him. Either put up or shut up).
Christie still has occasional bouts of anxiety that we've doomed our children to hell, but she snaps out of it pretty quickly. I think when we eventually come out to our families, it'll be because she can't take the rhetoric anymore. And when she gets ready to tell somebody something, they get fucking TOLD. :)
p.s. Putting the kids to bed, I'll read your link as soon as I get back.
SD on 13/4/2010 at 02:17
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
So, no evidence. I'm merely trying to provide a framework for the idea of original sin.
Here's the framework: would-be leaders need a way of keeping the proles in line, so they sell religion with the tagline: "Get it or suffer for all eternity".
Effective marketing.
fett on 13/4/2010 at 02:25
Quote Posted by SD
Here's the framework: would-be leaders need a way of keeping the proles in line, so they sell religion with the tagline: "Get it or suffer for all eternity".
Effective marketing.
Well, to be fair, it's right there in Genesis 3, written while the Jews were newly freed slaves, without true government. I suspect it was actually written long before that, so I don't think it was the original motivation. Sure comes in handy for the above purpose though.
Epos Nix on 13/4/2010 at 02:26
Quote:
I'm only good for debating with people who hold to a literal interpretation of the Torah, so I get pretty lost in all the metaphor that others see in it.
It should be obvious by now that a literal interpretation of the Bible hasn't served you too well. Considering the fact that you hold the entire backbone of the Bible as false: the idea of an Almighty, I don't understand why it pains you so that I attempt to find alternative view points that perhaps allow the words of the Bible to mesh with that thing we call Reality.
/edit
To add a bit of evidence for my interpretation of the events in Genesis, here's a quote:
Genesis 3:16 "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children. It's my understanding that the events in Genesis describe the evolutionary cusp when man evolved past his ape brethren. The "pains in childbearing" that God describes is the natural side-effect of evolving narrow hips to support our upright posture. This bit of evolution was both a boon and a curse for man. It allowed the free use of our hands but had the added side effect of creating tremendous pain during child birth and significant risk to the mother's health.
Perhaps the "I" in "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing" is evolution speaking... our true God.
