st.patrick on 11/4/2010 at 23:41

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I don't believe there is a God. Some of my friends who are grassroots Evangelic Brethren would probably say it's foolish not to see God's miracles everywhere you look. I don't know, I lead basically the same life they lead, never seen a miracle in my whole life. Their life is just as full of things good and bad as mine is. One of them, my classmate, who's been the first to marry at the age of 20, got divorced a year later because her Brethren husband cheated on her. The preacher's wife who was a kind and gentle woman died at the age of 40-something, leaving her husband and two little children behind. So honestly, a merciful God wouldn't test his devout servants like that, or at least not in my books (old Mr Job would probably disagree). And if this is really God's work, I couldn't care less about him for reasons he bloody well knows.

All that ultimately matters to me is whether people try to lead a good life. You believed in something deeper than I ever could, fett, and you tried to help those who were in need. I think you're a good man and that's what really counts.

Keep posting. It reads well.

fett on 12/4/2010 at 00:54

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That's worth elaborating on. Firstly (as I said in the OP) I think I had some need for a Greater Purpose. It was the easiest to understand (I was 13), but also because it demanded so little at the beginning. Yes, you're supposed to give your life, but in modern times that simply means giving yourself over to the belief system, followed by a public confession to the community of believers (which normally looks like the local church). It requires very little physical sacrifice compared to other religions which demand frequent prayer, good deeds, or strict accountability to the community of believers. Don't get me wrong, I knew from the moment I committed myself to that path that I would need to be willing to die like the disciples did if it came to that. It's a lot for a 13 year old to grasp, but you're invincible at that age.

I also still maintain that there is a very strong case for things like Judaic prophecy and the resurrection. I could argue both sides, but that's not the point. If you WANT to believe, there is plenty of evidence to encourage it. If I had stumbled onto Joseph Campbell or spent more time comparing Christianity to some lesser known religions (Aztec/Myan, Zoastrianism, Shinto, etc.) I would have noticed the similarities and maybe Christianity wouldn't have resonated with me so much. Fact is, the religions I mentioned studying in the OP are much more about self change, self realization, etc. Christianity is that as well, but the attraction for me was that it supposedly had the power to help other people who seemed unable to help themselves.

The message of grace in the Bible is very seductive because it doesn't require you to work or self-flagellate for forgiveness - it is a free gift if you'll only confess your sins, your humanity. From that point, a supernatural change is supposed to begin taking place. This was the revelation of Martin Luther, and later to some degree John Calvin. It looks great at the outset, but eventually I came to realize that because I couldn't earn it, I never felt deserving of it, so I was in a constant state of debt to God. That's a good theological realization for a Christian, but I believe it's ultimately very damaging to the psyche and especially to relationships for reasons it would take too long to go into here. In the end, no supernatural change takes place, and the believer is left wondering if he is a "vessel made for shame" by God, doomed to repeat the same sin over and over. Well, of course you are. "Sins" like lust, greed, anger, hatred, or gluttony are hardwired into human DNA and exacerbated by the society we've created. But Biblical theology even makes THAT your fault, because you were born into the sin of Adam. And you can be relieved of all this by simply believing and having a loving, growing relationship with a historical figure you've never even met.

Something personal to me, but I'm sure is not true of all Christians, was mentioned by Stitch on these forums awhile ago: that it is very sexy to believe yourself a crusader for the good of man against cosmic forces "normal" people can't even see. This ideas spawned a billion dollar industry within Christiandom in the late 70's, commonly referred to as Spiritual Warfare. Fighting a spiritual battle against the work of the devil in the world, in people's lives, in the church. The music, books, and T-shirts that promoted this idea were innumerable, and unfathomably ridiculous. Just Wiki: Mike Warknee, Frank Peretti, or Petra (band) to get an overview. It's an entire sub-culture within the Church that hit a fever pitch in the mid-late 80's, and I was smack in the middle of. But Stitch hit the nail on the head - it was sexy, particularly for a boy who cut his teeth on Lewis, Tolkien, Spielberg, Lucas. My first silly little Christian thrash metal band was even called "Warrior" (oh god, please just kill me).

Belief is a complex thing obviously, and when you're that age, I don't think it's possible to overestimate the role that hormones, loneliness, and peer acceptance play in the paths we take. I hope at least I've shed some light on why I took the whole thing so seriously and ended up where I did. Maybe it will serve as a warning or wake up call for someone else.

Thief13x on 12/4/2010 at 01:50

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damn, I have an enormous amount of respect for you after reading this. Sincere thanks for sharing this, it really resonates with me and the internal struggles I've had over the (fewer) years (unrelated to religion).

Epos Nix on 12/4/2010 at 02:21

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This does not mention anything on the topic of 'works'. The phrase "...hears My word" has a heavier meaning than I think you are giving it credit for, as this other quote illustrates:

Luke 8:21 "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

Obviously the word "practice" demands some sort of action.

The only reason I make any kind of deal out of this is because I've heard this take on Christianity far too often. People say it is a religion where minimal participation is required, only some sort of acceptance of faith, and somehow that translates into ascension to Heaven. But all of Christ's teachings require action! Whether it be contemplation, introspection or the 'works' of charity and compassion. No where among Jesus's words (and I only tend to accept those quotes by Jesus, as even his apostles did not truly understand him) do I see the lazy acceptance approach people associate with Christianity.

Sorry if this derails your pretty awesome post. But I think the distinction is important and helps to explain why The Church is full of people that never seem to change, as you've pointed out.

fett on 12/4/2010 at 03:20

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Epos - we could bat "faith vs. works" scriptures back and forth all day long, and I can argue either side. The whole of apostolic teaching calls for a balance of both, but it's clear that faith=works. In a nutshell, salvation cannot be obtained by works of sinful man (therefore the "work" of the sinless God-man, Jesus on the cross, to obtain salvation for all), so it can only be received freely as a gift from God, which prompts the saved sinner to do good works. There has been debate about the peripheral ramifications of the faith/works coin, but not a single pastor, teacher, or theologian in Protestantism or Judaic Christianity will tell you faith is the result of works. It's the point of departure between Catholics and Protestants and the Catholics are just plain wrong, if we're going strictly by the Bible (which they don't, so the whole discussion is a clusterfuck from the get-go).

Either way, my point in posting this wasn't to waste more time arguing theology, lest I vomit. You fail at heurmaneutics because you're comparing Jesus calling someone a friend (in Luke) to someone obtaining eternal life (the John passage). Those verses, and especially the context from which they come, are dealing with two entirely different matters. You are correct that Jesus did not advocate a lazy approach to discipleship - in fact, he warned his followers that they would be persecuted and killed. But the Western world no longer lives in that climate and you would be hard pressed to find some way to die purposely for Christ in America 2010.

The fact that the Church is full of people that don't change can be attributed to each and every individual's freewill to pursue that change, or rather their failure to do so. My problem is with the hundreds of people who've sat across from me over the years weeping and grinding their teeth because they sought and enacted Biblical prescription for change to no avail. My problem is that not once, not a single time in all my travels, experiences, and years did I see a single person, including myself, changed supernaturally in a way that could only be credited to divine intercession. This is what both the Jewish and Christian scriptures teach, supposedly record, and hold up as evidence that God is alive and working in the hearts of men. Yet for all the wonderful third-hand stories floating around about such radical change, I spent 25 years looking for it and found not a shred.