heretic on 30/11/2007 at 19:47
We are talking about a system where rape victims are considered as guilty as the rapists, and are often punished more severily.
Does this really surprise anyone?
This shit happens every day.
Fragony on 30/11/2007 at 19:54
Quote Posted by madwolf
Were you off sick during irony lessons?
Terminally ill probably..
Yakoob on 1/12/2007 at 01:19
Quote Posted by SD
Why is it different? Do you not believe in free speech?
But you are forgetting that this isn't happening in America.
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here a little. You're all looking at it wrong, interpreting this stuff through your american/uk "yay liberty!" viewpoints. But this stuff isn't happening in America*, but in Sudan. A whole different, independant country that has the right to have whatever rules it wishes to. Sure, they may be completly retarded and we may not agree with them, but if the people who founded the nation and support it enjoy them, who are we to judge? Case in point, the woman came to a foreign country, she should be expected to obey all its rules, regardless of how ridiculous they might seem. Don't like it? Well, then shouldn't have come there in first place. (Note: I am ignoring the fact it wasn't her who named the teddy bear, just for sake of illustrating my point)
It's all fine and dandy to defend free speech and liberty, but I don't think getting on high horses and dictating what everyone else should be doing in the style of "AMERICA FUCK YEAH!!!" is a good idea either. Just as we look at muslims as idiotic fuckwits, they look at us the same way; just because we have better guns doesn't make
our philosophy better.
(Note: I am only refering to the stuff that happens in muslim countries. Stuff like the doctors in britain refusing to operate on women is retarded by the same principle that they should obey the rules of the country they choose to live in, the UK).
* Refering to the teddy bear thing
catbarf on 1/12/2007 at 01:27
Yakoob is right. Whether you disagree with the whole event or not, she's still bound by the local law to stand trial for what is a crime.
SD on 1/12/2007 at 01:52
Quote Posted by Yakoob
But you are forgetting that this isn't happening in America.
What does that have to do with anything? Shouldn't human rights be universal?
Quote:
You're all looking at it wrong, interpreting this stuff through your american/uk "yay liberty!" viewpoints. But this stuff isn't happening in America*, but in Sudan. A whole different, independant country that has the right to have whatever rules it wishes to.
Sudan is governed by a military dictatorship! I'd argue that the Sudanese government has no more right to set rules for the Sudanese people than Bob Hoskins does. A government that rules with a democratic mandate from its citizens is one thing, but their government is entirely illegitimate.
And regardless of any local laws, I ought to be able to give whatever object I like whatever name I damn well like. Being sentenced to 15 days in prison for naming an inanimate object Muhammad is equally ludicrous whether it happens here or there, and such a sentence can never be justified.
nickie on 1/12/2007 at 02:11
Yes. If you go to another country then you should abide by their laws, regardless of the numerous people who come to our country and don't think they need to. But is this a law? Islamic or Sudanese. Citing a report, posted earlier
Quote:
But Adel Darwish, the political editor of The Middle East magazine, says that Muslim children - "like children everywhere" - give their pets the names of characters they liked, be it a religious figure, sports hero or pop singer.
"Millions of Muslim children in Muslim nations give their dolls, pets and teddies Muslim names of the Prophet and his mother, daughters and wives."
If even Muslims can't agree on whether its a crime or not then how is an Englishwoman supposed to know. I've just trawled through pages on Islamic Law (its 2 in the morning and I should be asleep) and there's truckloads on water, alcohol, blood, etc. etc. and a whole heap on idolatry (from which this insulting Islam thing seems to have come) and very possibly if I spend all night searching, I may just come up with an obscure reference somewhere but I doubt it.
Yakoob on 1/12/2007 at 02:35
Quote Posted by SD
What does that have to do with anything? Shouldn't human rights be universal?
Why? Because YOU think it's the righ thing to do?
Quote:
Sudan is governed by a military dictatorship! I'd argue that the Sudanese government has no more right to set rules for the Sudanese people than Bob Hoskins does. A government that rules with a democratic mandate from its citizens is one thing, but their government is entirely illegitimate.
It's not this "military dictatorhip" that's marching through streets demanding her death.
Quote Posted by AR Master
The fact "our" philosohpy doesn't call for the lashing and severed head of a woman who has the audacity to name a fucking teddy bear Mohammed pretty much does make it objectively better
As a matter of fact, no it doesn't. You're still looking at it through your "american" perspective, indoctrinated by the society you live in. Your stance only makes sense to you because that's what you've been led to believe your entire life.
From a purely objective standpoint, our philosophy isn't any better; in fact, neither is. They're all arbitrary human laws imposed on each other just because whoever thought of them, thought they were "right" at the time.
The_Raven on 1/12/2007 at 02:48
Quote Posted by Yakoob
...just because we have better guns doesn't make our philosophy better.
Yes, it does. History is written by the victors of conflict, and the one with the better guns is going to win; except for 'Nam, that one didn't work out. :ebil:
SD on 1/12/2007 at 03:29
Quote Posted by Yakoob
Why? Because YOU think it's the righ thing to do?
No, because it IS the right thing to do. Fuck moral and cultural relativism. Human rights are good. That's as close as you're gonna get to a universal truth.
Quote:
It's not this "military dictatorhip" that's marching through streets demanding her death.
No, just people whose minds have been brainwashed by the same poisonous meme, Islamism.
SubJeff on 1/12/2007 at 03:39
I believe in free speech up to a point SD. Incitement to violence or religious or racial hatred should not be allowed freely. I think that the entire "crime" of calling an object Mohammed is a nonsense, yes, but if you go to a strictly religious Islamic nation and set out to offend and THEN fall foul of the law then more fool you.
Whilst I don't believe entirely in moral and cultural relativism I do think we should respect other people's MOs up to the point where it just becomes insane or clearly corrupt - like in the rape cases Star linked to. And this teddy bear one.
As to the links about Muslims in the UK you gave - THAT is some amaaazing messed up crap. Those medical students should change their ways or be kicked out imo. You can't take the Hippocratic oath (or any of the modern oaths ) if that is your belief.
Also - "medieval nitwit". Ha ha, Loving that.
