Renzatic on 18/11/2013 at 00:03
Quote Posted by Chade
Even then, I still maintain that swimming has mostly been useful (historically) for making the player
feel like they're taking a route that is unusual/unexpected/unauthorized within the fiction of the game world. And it is good for that. I would like to see swimming. But there are many other ways to accomplish the same thing.
This is my take on it. Swimming's cool and all, and has made for some memorable setpieces in the previous Thiefs, but it's not an absolutely integral part of the gameplay.
I doubt any one of us would say that Return to the Haunted Cathedral or the 7th Crystal suffered because they didn't have any swimming sections in them.
Renault on 18/11/2013 at 01:10
OK, but didn't you think it was noticeable, and changed the way that the whole Thief world feels, because there wasn't ANY swimmable areas in all of TDS? My only point several posts back was that water is an integral part of Thief's environments, at least it was in the first 2 games.
Chade on 18/11/2013 at 01:44
To be honest: no I didn't.
I didn't think about it at all when water wasn't present. I guess I probably would have if the entire game world had no water, but that wasn't the case.
I did think about it a little bit when first coming across the foot high water that you wade through, but I suspect only because it reminded me of all the arguments we had about swimming on the forums. (I always wonder whether our arguments actively affect the things we enjoy in the games.)
And of course, the first time you drop into the sea and drown, it does feel pretty stupid. But personally, that's the sort of thing I consciously notice a few times, and then just internalize and move on.
Goldmoon Dawn on 18/11/2013 at 01:51
Deadly Shadow. What a travesty.
New Horizon on 18/11/2013 at 02:42
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
So... the reason you liked water, is that the AI had no idea how to deal with it?
No, you're completely misinterpreting my post. In addition to being another way to get into a place it lent itself to other ways of escape. If you read my post correctly I did not say that I enjoyed it because the AI didn't know how to deal with it. I said that I slipped away from the AI and hid at the bottom of the pool where they were not able to see me. They lost track of me and I barely made it out of the swimming pool alive. Out of all the things I mentioned, only one dealt with an AI short coming of falling into the water and dying, and that had less to do with the AI not knowing how to handle water and more to do with a sudden glitch in their path finding causing them to fall.
The point I was making is that once you have a 'usable' water system in place, not only does it allow for the creation of alternative access to areas, it adds yet another layer of simulation to the world...'note' I did not say reality, I said simulation. It allowed players the freedom and creativity to use it beyond simple point A to point B transport.
It simply doesn't make sense to not have usable water in a series like this. Is it absolutely necessary, probably not, but then neither was a lot of things the Thief games did...like edible food, but they added to the experience and that's what both you and EM can't seem to grasp. For EM, if something doesn't serve the purpose of getting the player from point A to point B in their scripted adventure, then it's pointless in their minds. Couldn't be any further from the truth. Whether it makes up 90% or only 2% of the gaming experience, sometimes it's the smaller details that really help sell the ingame world as something that is real....not just the fidelity of the flashy graphics.
New Horizon on 18/11/2013 at 02:48
Quote Posted by Renzatic
I doubt any one of us would say that Return to the Haunted Cathedral or the 7th Crystal suffered because they didn't have any swimming sections in them.
They are individuals missions, not 'the whole'.
Again, this comes down to Eidos giving the impression early on that they were interested in crafting a game for the fans. They asked for fan input at the very beginning of the project and tons of people said they really wanted to see swimmable water return. Now, given that this game has probably been developed and trashed 3 or 4 times..it's possible that a version of the game did have swimmable water. We'll probably never know though.
The argument for me really isn't whether swimmable water is absolutely necessary, it's that it was quite clearly put forth to the devs as something we really wanted to see return after it's absence in Deadly Shadows. Given that we have it working in Dark Mod, there is really no excuse for it not to be in a AAA project.
SubJeff on 18/11/2013 at 05:34
Quote Posted by Chade
Really, SE? Aren't you getting a bit desperate now?
That should be a well known fact for anyone who's been here as long as you have.
Desperate? What are you on about?
Fwiw, and despite, well - you, I agree with you on water. Nice but not essential. I didn't find it odf that it was missing in TDS though I did find it odd to die if I feel in it.
The thing is, NH and Spring, that there are far far more important things to get right before you start spending time on swimmable water, which is what makes it less important.
Starker on 18/11/2013 at 06:36
Quote Posted by New Horizon
It simply doesn't make sense to not have usable water in a series like this. Is it absolutely necessary, probably not, but then neither was a lot of things the Thief games did...like edible food, but they added to the experience and that's what both you and EM can't seem to grasp. For EM, if something doesn't serve the purpose of getting the player from point A to point B in their scripted adventure, then it's pointless in their minds. Couldn't be any further from the truth. Whether it makes up 90% or only 2% of the gaming experience, sometimes it's the smaller details that really help sell the ingame world as something that is real....not just the fidelity of the flashy graphics.
Dynamic interactive environments also empower designers more than static environments: (
http://criticalpathproject.com/?v=66674105)
kora on 18/11/2013 at 12:29
I like to think of Garrett as a rat in a maze. Hungry for survival & looking for that piece of cheese.. Without the intricate tunnels & waterways & sewers to make exploration more interesting it's less intricate, sublime & unbelievable to see him as a ninja hero. I see a vast amount of FM (not that they have that in mind for fans) creativity reduced without water & the capability to swim.
bukary on 18/11/2013 at 12:33
Quote Posted by Renzatic
I doubt any one of us would say that Return to the Haunted Cathedral or the 7th Crystal suffered because they didn't have any swimming sections in them.
But, for example, Calendra's Legacy would definitely suffer. :p
I want to swim in NuThief! And I was really hoping for The City with canals.
