Take 5 - #5 - TTLG Forums

GodzillaX8 on 17/11/2013 at 20:01

Quote Posted by New Horizon

I guess you haven't asked me then because having usable, swimmable water, was a very memorable factor of the original games.

Right off the bat, Lord Bafford's is infiltrated by way of falling down a deep well. That was incredibly satisfying and not only that, there was a swimming pool. I have had several crazy experiences with that. Once when I was discovered, I ducked around a corner and jumped into the pool and sank to the bottom. The guard lost sight of me and gave up just before I drowned. Another time I was on the second floor. I jumped off a balcony in Bafford's and landed safely in the pool below, swam out and got away. Yet another time, I had a guard chasing me in circles around that same pool, something went wrong and the guard fell in and drowned. Totally unexpected.

So... the reason you liked water, is that the AI had no idea how to deal with it? I just don't get why people are suddenly making it into this huge deal, like water was the entire focal point of Thief gameplay, and its exclusion is a damning failure. At WORST, it's a minor annoyance that you can't swim if you want to, I hardly think you can surmise the game is going to be total garbage simply because they thought swimming was a dumb idea for the game.

Quote Posted by New Horizon

Eidos Montreal's idea of immersion is kind of messed up if you ask me. Their idea of immersion is to handcuff the player to 'their' idea of what the character should be, rather than let the player run completely free. It's the opposite of what a Thief game should be like.

I don't understand how something has to be almost entirely the same in order to be "worthy" of being called a Thief game. Things can be different and just as good in their own way. For me, all I want out of the game is stealth and stealing. I'd rather have this Thief game than no other Thief game ever again.

I re-iterate my previous argument: if developers were terrified to ever change any aspect of gameplay from the originals, we never would have gotten Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Without actually having played the game hands-on, you can talk all you want about how terrible it's going to be, but you won't know for sure that it's even half as bad as you think until you've actually played it.

Renault on 17/11/2013 at 20:23

Quote Posted by New Horizon

and a few other really neat experiences where I could only get somewhere by swimming.

-Shipping and Receiving - Enter Captain Davidson's ship by swimming to the back of it and sneaking onboard via the ladder.
-Swimming the underwater tombs in The Bonehoard
-Entering the Lost City via water entrance with waterfall
-Underwater entrance to little big world in The Sword
-Sewer system in Thieves Guild
-Element key underwater in Mages Towers
-Underwater entrance to Shoalsgate through sewers in Framed
-Water caverns under the Opera house in Song of the Caverns
-Crazy water rides in The Maw of Chaos

Just a to name a few. Anyone who says water didn't play a large role in the first 2 Thief games probably just doesn't remember the game well and/or hasn't played it in a while.

Goldmoon Dawn on 17/11/2013 at 20:26

Quote Posted by GodzillaX8

I just don't get why people are suddenly making it into this huge deal, like water was the entire focal point of Thief gameplay, and its exclusion is a damning failure.

I wonder if you will ever get it through your head that contextual game play *ruins* the free form 1st person movement physics presented in the first game. That is the problem that everyone has focused on. The loss of swimming is yet another heartbreaking element of free form movement stripped from the classic game.

With contextual movement, you cant miss. In free form physics movement, you can certainly attempt to jump through the air and land where you intend. You might miss though, and land somewhere else, or fall off what you were jumping on. This, is fun. Contextual movement removes this element, because, you see... you *cant* miss! You jump, and if it is allowable, you safely script to your landing point.

Again, not exactly the vision that Looking Glass was masterfully presenting to us...

Llama on 17/11/2013 at 20:43

Quote Posted by Brethren

I think the non swimming aspect of Nuthief is symbolic of the developers who are taking inspiration more from Dark Shadows than they are from Thief I and II.

SubJeff on 17/11/2013 at 21:39

I'm just not that fussed about swimming. It stops you having specific potentially highly atmospheric levels (flooded areas, sewers with water, coastal locations) that are all in Dishonoured, but it all depends on what the rest of the game is like.

The difficulty options/potential sound pretty cool though.

Only Vae could or would attempt to twist this potentially cool aspect of the game into something negative. Yawn.

Chade on 17/11/2013 at 22:35

Quote Posted by Springheel

Ok, let's parse this down ... The following claims are at least implied:

1. Because the game happens inside the city, there isn't much water.
2. Because it's an "autumn setting", there isn't much water.
3. Water would be too cold for Garrett to swim in.

...

If he had said something like, "Well, we thought it was a bit unrealistic for Garrett to be able to swim around underwater and then sneak around without guards noticing trails of water or hearing him slosh about," I would have had an easier time accepting that reasoning (though I would disagree with it). But the answer he actually gave is ridiculous.

Again, I wouldn't be surprised if you are right. But I think you're insisting that it's a deep and meaningful response when it doesn't have to be. My first impression upon reading the answer was simply that they're going for a certain mood, and swimming wasn't a part of that.

Quote Posted by Brethren

It didn't play a large role. :p

Ok, it did play a medium role, mostly to help set the mood in some levels. It barely interacted at all with the stealth gameplay. It's main contribution to gameplay was in T1, in the platformer sections, when LGS wasn't so confident about stealth being fun.

There are lots of ways to set the mood of the game. Swimmable water helps, but isn't necessary. Omitting swimmable water will hardly affect the gameplay at all.

That said, I would like to see an underwater stealth mission. I think if you're going to do a lost city or kurshok style mission, you should make the gameplay exotic to suit the location. Let's have Garrett sneaking around some sunken city, swimming from air pocket to air pocket, only able to stay in shadows in the depths for a short periods of time before surfacing in brightly lit air pockets to catch his breath. That would be great.

SubJeff on 17/11/2013 at 23:21

Quote Posted by Chade

in T1, in the platformer sections, when LGS wasn't so confident about stealth being fun.

What nonsense is this?

Chade on 17/11/2013 at 23:27

Really, SE? Aren't you getting a bit desperate now?

That should be a well known fact for anyone who's been here as long as you have.

Springheel on 17/11/2013 at 23:39

Thief isn't just about stealth; it's also about exploration, and getting into places you're not supposed to be. And it's the latter where swimmable water will be missed.

Chade on 17/11/2013 at 23:48

Even then, I still maintain that swimming has mostly been useful (historically) for making the player feel like they're taking a route that is unusual/unexpected/unauthorized within the fiction of the game world. And it is good for that. I would like to see swimming. But there are many other ways to accomplish the same thing.