Udo on 27/5/2020 at 19:23
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I hate small missions.. I mean look at the OMs.. all are big or at least medium size. I don't like to wander for 2 hours on 3 streets or in a few rooms. I will never build small that's for sure. Of course if you build small you can provide insane graphics.. but that's noob-ish. The secret is to build big and provide good graphics.. I mean look at The Bank in Thief2 or Cathedral of Soulforge. My goal is to be as good as that. Those missions were built in Old Dark. You don't need more than Old Dark to build legendary missions.
I would pick a small to medium-size mission with well-placed content over a big and empty mission every day. And to reach the level of building something like Bank or Cathedral I see you are still on a looong way...especially with such bold statements. It´s not the tool that is important, yes, but it can be presumed that NewDark would have been used if it would have been around during LGS times.
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Try playing this in Old Dark to see the full atmosphere and felling of this mission. In New Dark you can see details in the shadow and the graphics look poor. You can't create the atmosphere of Thief Gold in New Dark.
I highly doubt that you can´t create good atmosphere in NewDark. After all, what is important for the atmosphere is the mixture of the design, the soundtrack and the story. It doesn´t matter if it is in OD or ND, Thief is Thief because the way it was designed and not because of the engine. It´s not that ND is something like the Unreal Engine which would of course give it a different feeling, ND is the same enging with some improvements.
And quite certainly I will not replay in OD...neither see I much replay value in it nor that it´s worth the effort. It´s not that we talk about something like T2X which I view worth of replaying(just in an imaginary scenario that it wouldn´t work in ND - which is not the case).
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About the loot placement - this mission is meant to be part of a campaign of 14 missions, i designed this for replayability, this is not a mission that you play one time (probably at expert mode as all of you do) and forget about it, you play this for years and discover something new every time. If you play this 50 times as you probably did with Down in the Bonehoard and Trail of Blood the maze will not be a problem because you already know how to move around.
It seems you have too high expectations how players like your missions. Like said, not all missions have a replay value. I replayed the OMs a lot, and there are some I would replay more than others, but for fan content it´s not the same. The bar for fan contest is set rather high, there are many outstanding missions, and considering time I don´t see anyone replaying your mission 50 times or even remembering it for years.
And no, this is not like Bonehoard. Bonehoard is kind of a maze, but in a logical way. Trail of Blood is rather linear...not really a maze.
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I remember i spent 3 hours and a half to finish the Bonehoard for the first time and finding the Horn in that labyrinth was incredible hard. Yes they are some markings on the walls in some places but many caves and tunnel are not marked if you get lost you move in circles for hours. In the tombs part no hint in finding the horn only the sound which is a poor indication because there are many levels and cylinders. Map is poor and almost useless. Loot is hard to find and well hidden. On expert is a real challenge.
3 hours for Bonehoard? Ok, whatever. I don´t view Bonehoard as that confusing. Yes, it can be when played first-time, but it´s not that convoluted. Also considering that the first playthrough might be on Normal it´s really easy-peasy - the Horn is audible from afar and you don´t even have to bother to go back when picking it up.
The map in the original games was always mostly not really useful - it´s just for hints, not to guide you completely. It´s of course more challenging than a modern game with automap and quest marker, but OTOH that´s something I like about Thief. Which of course doesn´t mean a level should be overconfusing.
Master of Dromed on 28/5/2020 at 02:26
Quote Posted by Udo
I would pick a small to medium-size mission with well-placed content over a big and empty mission every day. And to reach the level of building something like Bank or Cathedral I see you are still on a looong way...especially with such bold statements. It´s not the tool that is important, yes, but it can be presumed that NewDark would have been used if it would have been around during LGS times.
I highly doubt that you can´t create good atmosphere in NewDark. After all, what is important for the atmosphere is the mixture of the design, the soundtrack and the story. It doesn´t matter if it is in OD or ND, Thief is Thief because the way it was designed and not because of the engine. It´s not that ND is something like the Unreal Engine which would of course give it a different feeling, ND is the same enging with some improvements.
And quite certainly I will not replay in OD...neither see I much replay value in it nor that it´s worth the effort. It´s not that we talk about something like T2X which I view worth of replaying(just in an imaginary scenario that it wouldn´t work in ND - which is not the case).
It seems you have too high expectations how players like your missions. Like said, not all missions have a replay value. I replayed the OMs a lot, and there are some I would replay more than others, but for fan content it´s not the same. The bar for fan contest is set rather high, there are many outstanding missions, and considering time I don´t see anyone replaying your mission 50 times or even remembering it for years.
And no, this is not like Bonehoard. Bonehoard is kind of a maze, but in a logical way. Trail of Blood is rather linear...not really a maze.
3 hours for Bonehoard? Ok, whatever. I don´t view Bonehoard as that confusing. Yes, it can be when played first-time, but it´s not that convoluted. Also considering that the first playthrough might be on Normal it´s really easy-peasy - the Horn is audible from afar and you don´t even have to bother to go back when picking it up.
The map in the original games was always mostly not really useful - it´s just for hints, not to guide you completely. It´s of course more challenging than a modern game with automap and quest marker, but OTOH that´s something I like about Thief. Which of course doesn´t mean a level should be overconfusing.
I think you're trying to force people to think like you. I'm a different person, i prefer bigger and empty missions like Thieves Guild. People are free here to build what they like, don't try to force them to build your way. I don't know why you said i can't build levels as good as Bank or Soulforge, you don't know me at all. Be assured i can if i will. Also how do you know people will not replay my missions? Just because you don't like them that doesn't mean others will think like you. Maybe they will like them a lot. You try to demotivate people or something?
fortuni on 28/5/2020 at 15:08
Master of Dromed I get the feeling your being too defensive but that's understandable as your new to the forum and have obviously spent a lot of time on these missions
I've played both of your missions and
Into the Dark Forest is very much better than
A Tough Night but both Udo and Galaer haven't made any comments I would disagree with. My thoughts when playing both missions were on the lines of 'OMG am I going to come across anything of interest' and the answer sadly was no.
You say that you prefer big missions which is fine, so do I, but big missions that are void of anything worth looking at, anything of interest worth exploring or without a plot and design that propels players into wanting to explore further is both going to leading to frustration and comments on the forum that are unlikely to be received well by the author. I didn't finish either mission in the end because all I came across was another similar looking street or tunnels, yes I completed a couple of objectives on both occasions but was not inclined to spend any more time getting frustrated in such bland looking tunnels and streets. I certainly have no desire to play either mission again (less alone 50 times) just to see if I may have missed something previously.
Your argument that LGS made maps with barely furnished rooms and thus is how a fan mission should be is not well received nowadays, it is almost universally accepted that the lack of furnishing in the OM's was the weakest design issue of Thief and few author nowadays follow that design choice, and when they do they almost invariably receive the same level of criticism as your missions have, so don't take those comments personally, it's just that 20 years of progress means modern players expect a lot more.
I recently played (
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://darkfate.org/) Sceptre of Dor Am'al IMHO one of the most under rated missions which is a master class in great design, superior lighting, clever ideas and a great plot. Starting off on a ship you need to find your way through some really good looking caves and tunnels, explore a medium sized town which is far from box shaped, then head off to an abandoned prison. Everything about the mission is top class the tunnels especially which even has a railway track, and not once do you feel like putting it aside and trying another mission and yes this was made in Olddark.
Trust me your not the first author who has released a mission before it was fully ready, a common error by new authors who are keen to present their work the wider community, but as suggested earlier beta testing both missions with experienced testers would told you what works and what doesn't. Beta testing isn't just about finding bugs, it's about letting the author know what the testers like, what they don't like, whether a room is aesthetically pleasing or not, whether you can mantle out of the water or not, if not lets put a ladder there, guard placement and AI pathfinding, misaligned textures etc, it goes on and on and can take many weeks, but in the end a well tested mission is usually a well received mission.
But do not let any criticism of these 2 missions put you off from releasing the 3rd instalment, just take on board what players like and don't like, accept all comments, both harsh and friendly, and we'll make you a very much better author than you can possibly imagine atm.
Udo on 28/5/2020 at 16:15
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I think you're trying to force people to think like you. I'm a different person, i prefer bigger and empty missions like Thieves Guild. People are free here to build what they like, don't try to force them to build your way.
LOL. What you read from just an opinion about your mission is hilarous.
It´s not that I expect anyone to build only missions that are to my taste.
But then Thieves Guild is a bad example. I don´t know many people who like it. I´m not that fond of that level, but then again I made my peace with it. But even Thieves Guild is better than yours. I just checked a video of "A tough night" and it seems just like Guild with missing tapestry.
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I don't know why you said i can't build levels as good as Bank or Soulforge, you don't know me at all. Be assured i can if i will.
Well, then just do it, but it seems you prefer to bicker here or on other sites. Action speaks louder than words. So, where are your promised awesome missions then? I don´t mind if you would release them.
Maybe you should your sights lower in the current stage. If someone calls himself "Master" of something not only me expects awesome work from him. Currently the name seems more to be ironic :joke:.
It´s like I would call myself "Master of Thief speedrunning" and would post a 2 hour long normal run of TDP and would attack everyone who says it´s bad. So, I wouldn´t do it.
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Also how do you know people will not replay my missions? Just because you don't like them that doesn't mean others will think like you.
Well, of course just my opinion, but being a Thief player since TDP I just might presume which missions have more replay value than others.
Aside that, it´s not that you have made yourself a name like GORT or other better-known FM makers. Maybe you should do that first - and then we´ll see.
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You try to demotivate people or something?
I just state my opinion and if you take it, agree/disagree or be offended is up to you. Why should I care. In the end, you release your work into public, so I don´t see why you just expect flattering reviews.
But yeah, in the current situation IMHO it wouldn´t be any loss if you would stop making FMs. Just because you can´t handle criticism.
Esme on 29/5/2020 at 20:45
I'm getting a weird error when loading a savegame
If I save just before dealing with the last burrick before the mages area & the stone elemental it's fine, once that last burrick is dealt with then I can't save & reload
I tried ironmanning from there but my weapons started acting screwy I'd try shooting a water arrow & I shot a cheese wedge, then the weapons stopped working altogether I didn't even get the animations
I'm sorry but I'm using newdark, olddark is not an option, any suggestions are welcome
--EDIT--
I have a savegame from just before this starts happening & one from immediately after, first one loads second one doesn't, if that's any help
Master of Dromed on 29/5/2020 at 21:44
Quote Posted by Esme
I'm getting a weird error when loading a savegame
If I save just before dealing with the
last burrick before the mages area & the stone elemental it's fine, once that
last burrick is dealt with then I can't save & reload
I tried ironmanning from there but my weapons started acting screwy I'd try shooting a water arrow & I shot a cheese wedge, then the weapons stopped working altogether I didn't even get the animations
I'm sorry but I'm using newdark, olddark is not an option, any suggestions are welcome
--EDIT--
I have a savegame from just before this starts happening & one from immediately after, first one loads second one doesn't, if that's any help
That never happened to anyone until now, so strange, i have no idea what can cause this. It's not because the NewDark this works fine in NewDark, except the map. Maybe something related to your Thief installation? Maybe is anyone here who knows something about this weird error.
Yandros on 30/5/2020 at 01:37
Everyone, I see that things have gotten a little tense in this thread the last few days. I'd just like to remind folks in general to be civil especially when presenting criticism. I don't see anything egregious going on, aside from a poke at the author's user name, which was out of line - just a reminder to keep it positive. And I'm not at all saying to refrain from criticism, just do it the right way.
Esme on 1/6/2020 at 13:33
Quote Posted by Master of Dromed
That never happened to anyone until now, so strange, i have no idea what can cause this. It's not because the NewDark this works fine in NewDark, except the map. Maybe something related to your Thief installation? Maybe is anyone here who knows something about this weird error.
OK I loaded the good save with dromed, went into game mode,
took 10 steps & dealt with the last burrick & went back to the editor
The mono window was full of the following messages endlessly repeated
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A Prisoner4X (1597) in bad cret pos: -787.49817,-657.422,305.86316 rad: 0.69999999 0.84000003
A Prisoner2X (1667) in bad cret pos: -792.88245,-538.61359,275.87094 rad: 0.69999999 0.84000003
& there was a popup for "Assertion Failed" saying "Index -32768 out of range (File: dynarray.h, Line:384) (Yes to trap, No to Exit, Cancel to ignore)"
Is that any help ?
Master of Dromed on 1/6/2020 at 16:53
Quote Posted by Esme
OK I loaded the good save with dromed, went into game mode,
took 10 steps & dealt with the last burrick & went back to the editor
The mono window was full of the following messages endlessly repeated
& there was a popup for "Assertion Failed" saying "Index -32768 out of range (File: dynarray.h, Line:384) (Yes to trap, No to Exit, Cancel to ignore)"
Is that any help ?
No.. i can't figure out why this is happening only to you, almost all players played this in New Dark, no one reported that until now. If you don't kill the burrick, just snick past him maybe you can continue the mission in normal circumstances? If you have an older save maybe you can try resuming from there?
--EDIT--
Went in Dromed (Old Dark) followed the path to the burricks cave, killed all burricks.. everything worked fine after. Opened monolog - no error.
Also played this in New Dark, killed all burricks - no error.
Esme on 2/6/2020 at 12:52
It may be something to do with me being on Linux & running with wine, played pretty much everything else without complaint though, maybe the dl was corrupted somehow
Bit of a shame as I was enjoying it too, I'll put it on the back burner for now
Thanks for having a look