Tintin on 11/6/2003 at 02:24

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Thanks guys for your help and the welcome!

This forum is great for taffers!

Nightwalker on 11/8/2003 at 00:18

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The best place to find out if a loot list or walkthrough exists for a particular FM is (http://thiefmissions.com/) Cheap Missions Either search for a mission or just go directly to the list of the latest missions. Along the top of the page there's be places where you can click on "Walkthroughs" or "Loot Lists" and it will bring up a list of all the missions that Jason either has them posted for or has links for. The majority of FMs don't have walkthroughs or loot lists, though, so in that case, you just need to post here and see if someone can help you. :)

I don't recall any little girl in this particular mission but it's not one I've played recently, so I may have forgotten.

Dafydd on 7/9/2003 at 05:01

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[Nightwalker, or Anyone]

I'm totally stumped. I completed all the objectives and returned (with Alex) back to exactly where I started... but the mission won't end!

I double and triple checked; all the mission objectives are checked off except Don't Kill Servants or Guards (because it's not technically over; I certainly killed no one except the one I was required to kill) -- and the last objective, which is to return to the vineyard when "everything else" is done. Which it is.

So why doesn't it end?

Second point: Ghost is really problematical in this FM. I'm shifting to spoiler mode to continue....

[spoiler]First of all, you're required to stop Alex from assassinating Montague. But how? You can't go down and talk him out of it. The only thing possible is to knock him out... which you must do from a distance (you can't be seen by Montague), so a gas arrow is the only option. This is an anti-ghost action, though it's required by the objective.

Second, before even firing the gas arrow, you must cut your way through a banner. Even if there were some way to transmigrate, that, too, would be a ghost bust -- save that it's secondarily required by the objective (I tried sitting next to the banner for a moment or two, and Alex rushed in and did his dirty deed, ending the game for me).

Third, after you take care of Alex, you get a new objective to kill Montague yourself. Another ghost bust, except that it's an objective.

So I don't know how to evaluate my ghostly performance in Embracing the Enema. I can honestly say I didn't knock out anyone but Alex and didn't kill anyone but Montague, I didn't damage any property except that pesky banner (required), and I didn't cause any AI to alert beyond the "musta been rats" phase. I think it's technically a ghost... but it's not aesthetically a ghost, and I'm not sure whether I should think of it as having ghosted the mission. But it's not my fault! The mission is designed that way.[/spoiler]

In any case, I got 2495 out of 2995 loot, got 3 out of 8 pockets, 5 locks, and the game-time was 2:46:03.

But I can't make the game end! Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Dafydd

Dafydd on 7/9/2003 at 21:06

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[Eshaktaar]

I got to the vineyard with Alex and dropped him there, and that's when I got the chime, when that objective was ticked off.

But the game didn't end.



Well, yeah -- but that busts a ghost, too!

Hm... the more I think about it, the more I think this mission is not technically ghostable, since only two of the three ghostbusting actions is literally required by an objective. But even if the third were required, it wouldn't FEEL like a ghost when you have to do all this.

According to the Final Rules on ghost, you're technically clean if you only did something because a mission requirement nakedly and literally forced you to do. Embracing the Enemy (yes, the last time was deliberate :wot: ) is perhaps technically ghostable, depending on how loose your definition is; but I guess my own standard is stricter than that.

To me, a technically unghostable mission would be, for example, one that required you to steal a gem that sits in a brightly lit room with a guard staring directly at it, or directly at the only entrance, making it impossible to steal the gem without at the very least alerting the guard. If BJing or killing the guard were not one of the objectives, then you'd just be out of luck trying to ghost.

This is why I'm now say Embracing the Enemy is not ghostable, for the narrowest of technical reasons:

[spoiler]Because there is no actual objective to slash the banner. It's absolutely required to complete the mission, but it's not listed under the objectives, as stopping Alex and killing Montague both are.[/spoiler]

(It could be made ghostable by a slight change to the wording of the objective:[spoiler]Add the phrase "no matter what property you have to destroy to stop Alex," or somesuch.[/spoiler] That would make it completely legal, in my opinion.)

So I guess I came as close to ghosting this FM as possible, but not close enough actually to say I ghosted it.

Sigh. My first ghosting failure in the last seven or eight FMs, and it wasn't even my fault!

Dafydd

Dafydd on 8/9/2003 at 04:43

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[Hit Deity]

My secret is -- lots of reloading!

"Hm... I wonder if I can sneak around this way.... Aack! They saw me! Reload. All right, then how about this way.... Argh! Wow, bloody. Reload. Wait, maybe if I run instead of sneak -- eeeew, reload! -- or else maybe I can rope up to here... hey, good grief, I made it. SAVE! SAVE QUICKLY! SAVE TWICE!"

Dafydd