heywood on 22/2/2021 at 23:22
Quote Posted by prengle
i'm well aware that arguing with zylon is sisyphean but i'll mention this - the majority of players aren't going to get off their asses and install shtup or any mods themselves, because modding is hard and they have absolutely no interest in learning how to do it
I think you're wrong about that. Only hardcore original fans would want to play this game vanilla, and not many of those. Anybody "new" who knows about SS2 and is interested enough to obtain and play a semi-obscure sci-fi RPG from 1999 is going to be aware of the visual upgrades and want them. And you don't have to learn how to mod to install mods.
Quote:
this is why modpacks and automated mod installation have been the subject of several heated debates for.. decades(?) in almost every big modding community i can think of.
Huh, what? Are you implying that mods should be difficult to install, so that only the modders can enjoy them?
Quote:
this is also why mods being included in an official release like ss2ee is such a big deal to begin with, even though the same people will think it's nightdive's work and not fanmade work. you can't win with these people :sweat:
As long as they ask permission and give credit, I don't think you have any right to complain at all.
Bottom line: These aren't your mods to control.
prengle on 23/2/2021 at 01:26
Quote Posted by heywood
I think you're wrong about that. Only hardcore original fans would want to play this game vanilla, and not many of those. Anybody "new" who knows about SS2 and is interested enough to obtain and play a semi-obscure sci-fi RPG from 1999 is going to be aware of the visual upgrades and want them. And you don't have to learn how to mod to install mods.
Huh, what? Are you implying that mods should be difficult to install, so that only the modders can enjoy them?
As long as they ask permission and give credit, I don't think you have any right to complain at all.
Bottom line: These aren't your mods to control.you'd probably be surprised by the number of people who are ok with playing ss2 (and other games) sans graphics mods - not everyone wants them, whether they're an og fan or a noob like i was once upon a time. i've honestly noticed more people playing with vanilla-ish visuals than i did just a couple of years ago, at least in bethesda modding circles. to nightdive's credit afaik the included graphics mods are technically optional, so there's that... maybe
and you'd also probably be surprised by the number of people who aren't even willing to learn how to
install mods properly either - it really is that bad. i don't want mods to be intentionally difficult to install, but i think mod users should do the bare minimum and at least attempt to learn the basics of modding before using them. lord knows that (
https://www.pcgamer.com/auto-installing-over-600-mods-makes-skyrim-beautiful-and-confusing/) game journos can't be bothered to. either way, gatekeeping isn't really the issue here, i mentioned modpacks because of the inevitable shitstorm about mod permissions that always pops up because of them
i think i explicitly stated somewhere that if these modders are ok with giving their work away for free then that's on them and they shouldn't be persecuted for it or anything, i'm not complaining about permissions here because that's how modding fundamentally works. i'm only taking issue because ss2ee has a price tag attached to it
Quote Posted by Starker
As for SS3, after the Thief reboot, I have more faith in Warren Spector (yes, even with Tencent backing) than Squeenix pulling it off, at least as far as creative vision is concerned. And he might well fail, for nothing is certain in game development.
...have you actually played underworld ascendant?
Starker on 23/2/2021 at 03:00
Quote Posted by prengle
...have you actually played underworld ascendant?
I backed it. It's more like a tech demo than a real game, but it also got some of the immersive stuff very right. I've said it before that it has the bones of a great game in it. With proper management, it could have been a cool short indie game and with proper financing, it could have been a great full-fledged immersive sim. But game development doesn't work out more often than not, that's the nature of the beast. I'm fine with having given Looking Glass alumni a shot at this, though.
Anyway, I'm not sure what your point here is, as Warren Spector is in an entirely different city, leading an entirely different team. And yes, that project too can fail, there's nothing set in stone. But I think I'd rather have the original talent try and fail their hand at a real immersive sim rather than a big corp give us a slightly System Shock flavoured shooter or something.
ZylonBane on 23/2/2021 at 21:42
Quote Posted by Starker
It's more like a tech demo than a real game
Isn't the entire point of tech demos to be technically impressive? UA is like, the exact opposite of that.
I'd be hard pressed to even call UA a proof of concept demo.
heywood on 23/2/2021 at 22:40
Quote Posted by prengle
i'm only taking issue because ss2ee has a price tag attached to it
I know. Let's see how much improvement Night Dive puts into it.
Quote Posted by Starker
I backed it. It's more like a tech demo than a real game, but it also got some of the immersive stuff very right. I've said it before that it has the bones of a great game in it. With proper management, it could have been a cool short indie game and with proper financing, it could have been a great full-fledged immersive sim. But game development doesn't work out more often than not, that's the nature of the beast. I'm fine with having given Looking Glass alumni a shot at this, though.
Anyway, I'm not sure what your point here is, as Warren Spector is in an entirely different city, leading an entirely different team. And yes, that project too can fail, there's nothing set in stone. But I think I'd rather have the original talent try and fail their hand at a real immersive sim rather than a big corp give us a slightly System Shock flavoured shooter or something.
I didn't really care that much for the teaser they showed during the Unity keynote. It was looking a bit too much like Doom 3. So I was half hoping that Tencent would replace the development team. What's the latest scoop? Is Otherside in Austin still leading?
prengle on 23/2/2021 at 22:52
Quote Posted by Starker
I backed it. It's more like a tech demo than a real game, but it also got some of the immersive stuff very right. I've said it before that it has the bones of a great game in it. With proper management, it could have been a cool short indie game and with proper financing, it could have been a great full-fledged immersive sim. But game development doesn't work out more often than not, that's the nature of the beast. I'm fine with having given Looking Glass alumni a shot at this, though.
Anyway, I'm not sure what your point here is, as Warren Spector is in an entirely different city, leading an entirely different team. And yes, that project too can fail, there's nothing set in stone. But I think I'd rather have the original talent try and fail their hand at a real immersive sim rather than a big corp give us a slightly System Shock flavoured shooter or something.
the funny epic joke i was trying to make was that underworld ascendant turned out to be a limp floppy pool noodle of a game, and that most famous 90s "rock star" devs like warren spector are complete and total washed up hacks - deus ex didn't turn out as amazingly as it did because of spector, i'd rather believe that it was people like sheldon pacotti and harvey smith who made that game as good as it was. maybe i'm just coping idk
Starker on 25/2/2021 at 01:50
Sure, one person isn't going to make a game like this. It takes a whole team. I guess I was using Spector as sort of a shorthand, which is a bit ironic, as he so commonly rails against this practice. I guess it's easier to heap the responsibility on the one person who's visible than the people you don't know.
And it's not that uncommon for a person to produce something amazing and then work on a flop after that
cough*Invisible War*
cough.
Quote Posted by heywood
I didn't really care that much for the teaser they showed during the Unity keynote. It was looking a bit too much like Doom 3. So I was half hoping that Tencent would replace the development team. What's the latest scoop? Is Otherside in Austin still leading?
From what I gather, OSE still working on the game and Tencent is publishing. I don't think there's anything more known beyond that.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Isn't the entire point of tech demos to be technically impressive? UA is like, the exact opposite of that.
I'd be hard pressed to even call UA a proof of concept demo.
Depends a lot on the demo and what it's for. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it can be generally understood that by "more like a tech demo than a real game" I did not mean to say that UA was technically impressive. Even so, I did like the fire propagation and the magic system quite a bit. Haven't seen many games play around with fire that way since Far Cry 2.
prengle on 25/2/2021 at 10:19
at least harvey admitted that he screwed up and took the blame for invisible war being lame as hell over a decade ago - that doesn't always happen with lead designers
Twist on 25/2/2021 at 17:57
Do we know for sure OtherSide is still working on System Shock 3? Prior to Tencent's involvement, the OtherSide Austin office was closed and all the employees were let go. The Boston office was working on a different, new project in the Unreal Engine, and other than Tim Stellmach and Paul Neurath, it wasn't clear who was there anymore. The Project Director, Lead Writer, Lead Level Designer and Lead Programmer for Underworld Ascendant have all long-since left OtherSide.
On the official forums, after the Tencent announcement people asked the community manager if they were still working on System Shock 3 and she basically just gave us a "no comment."
I haven't been paying much attention since then, so maybe there have been some new developments, but passively I haven't heard or noticed anything. So do we really know Warren Spector or OtherSide are still involved in the project?
Pyrian on 25/2/2021 at 18:13
I'm pretty sure the project is moribund for now.