Starker on 16/2/2021 at 05:37
This works two ways, though. Mod makers also want their mods to be used and what better way to distribute them than packaged right with the game? And this is not a chance you get often.
prengle on 16/2/2021 at 09:34
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
You are engaging in fallacious logic, and thus accomplishing nothing more than making yourself look silly.
Look, this is very simple:
* Game modders already give their work to the community for free, explicitly enhancing the "value" of the game.
* Anyone who buys the game can install any of the available free mods, freely, for free.
* Therefore, a publisher who decides to directly include free community mods does not add any more value to the game
than already exists, they're just removing steps to realize that value.
So while you may
think your argument is, "You're selling my mod, therefore give me money", in actuality it's, "You removed steps, therefore give me money."
pot to kettle zylon, but also, i find it disingenuous to say that mods don't make a game more valuable than it already is, especially considering that you yourself make them? this isn't the case with every mod (lolrebirth) but i would imagine that most people who install, say, Four Hundred, and like it, would say that it's better than the original textures it replaces, thereby making it a little more valuable than the original to those mod users. it'd be pretty damn hard to compare that mod's textures with the original game's and not recognize the difference in quality. on top of that, nightdive
is removing steps... by selling people the same free community-made mods. i don't see how that doesn't tie into my original argument
Kolya on 16/2/2021 at 14:38
Quote Posted by Starker
Mod makers also want their mods to be used
That is a different argument than ZB made. And I don't think it ends there.
Mod makers also want recognition, feedback from players, exchange with other modders, potentially help. And they want to inspire others also to create mods, so a better game can be enjoyed by everyone.
All of this works in a modding community by default. It's the whole point of having one. But it stops working when the mods are detached from their makers and of ways to communicate with them.
It is the same reason why we've discouraged mod packs for years and why SS2Tool does not simply download all the favourite mods into your game, which it could do right away.
ZylonBane on 17/2/2021 at 01:29
Quote Posted by prengle
i find it disingenuous to say that mods don't make a game more valuable than it already is
This is the exact opposite of what I said.
Quote:
i would imagine that most people who install, say, Four Hundred, and like it, would say that it's better than the original textures it replaces, thereby making it a little more valuable than the original to those mod users.
Yeah, I already said that.
Quote:
on top of that, nightdive
is removing steps...
And I already said this too.
Are you feeling okay? You seem to have somehow run my entire post through some manner of reverse comprehension filter.
Starker on 17/2/2021 at 02:53
Quote Posted by Kolya
That is a different argument than ZB made. And I don't think it ends there.
Mod makers also want recognition, feedback from players, exchange with other modders, potentially help. And they want to inspire others also to create mods, so a better game can be enjoyed by everyone.
All of this works in a modding community by default. It's the whole point of having one. But it stops working when the mods are detached from their makers and of ways to communicate with them.
It is the same reason why we've discouraged mod packs for years and why SS2Tool does not simply download all the favourite mods into your game, which it could do right away.
It seems this was a risk that the authors were willing to take, I guess. Maybe they just wanted to offer the best version of SS2 to players right out of the gate. And I don't think Kick would be adverse to promoting mods and directing traffic your way through Night Dive's channels or putting a link to the forum in the readme or mentioning it in the mod descriptions or something.
Furthermore, Night Dive actually doing something with the franchise, doing the source ports, releasing the source code, etc, has the potential to increase interest into the games and mods and fan missions even beyond that.
Kolya on 17/2/2021 at 22:35
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't think Kick would be adverse to promoting mods and directing traffic your way through Night Dive's channels or putting a link to the forum in the readme or mentioning it in the mod descriptions or something.
Yeah, maybe they'll do that. But Kick has not exactly been known for giving credit where it's due. And none of the modders even asked him to do that.
So Kick has no real reason to do so, except to avoid the embarrassment that was brought upon him last time, when I called him out on ripping off the results of our community work.
If I hadn't done so, there's a real chance he wouldn't even have asked these modders for permission to use their work. But since he did ask them, they're too flattered to be among the chosen ones, to ask for money or even a backlink.
Quote Posted by Starker
It seems this was a risk that the authors were willing to take, I guess.
That's probably what they think. "It's my work, I can do with it whatever I want."
But most of these mods are also the result of a lot of discussions. No one ever came along with a finished mod that wasn't improved by the feedback of the community.
By giving them to NightDive like that, they act as if none of this mattered. If even one new modder finds us because they played a mod in NightDive's SS2EE I shall be very surprised indeed. But who cares about that, when my mod is in the re-re-release of a nerdy RPG from the 90s by an actual company!
I think you'll notice this whole thing has left me a tad bit disappointed and jaded. Not for my own ego (I hope), except insofar as I clearly had not managed to instill enough self-respect into this community to demand to be taken seriously. I just realized that the ideals that had driven me to build a community website and that had provided for this community, were clearly not shared by this community.
There was a point when everyone hopped upon that deal when I considered to act the same way. It's my work after all and I can do with it what I want, right? So why not sell the damn website, at least the stupid domain should be worth something to someone, no? It was not a happy week. In the end I didn't do that, because I don't feel it belongs to me. And that I probably should pursue my ideals for my own sake and not for them. So I guess it's an ego thing after all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ZylonBane on 17/2/2021 at 23:08
Wait, Kick offered to buy systemshock.org?
Still, that's a completely different thing from giving permission to include a mod. Nobody's who's having their mod included will be losing control of it.
But just theoretically, let's say I, for example, refused permission to include SHTUP. It's not like I could reasonably demand money, because it's been contributed to by many different people. So SS2:EE would just not include SHTUP as an option by default. People could still go download and install it themselves. End result not really much difference.
Starker on 18/2/2021 at 01:13
Quote Posted by Kolya
Yeah, maybe they'll do that. But Kick has not exactly been known for giving credit where it's due. And none of the modders even asked him to do that.
So Kick has no real reason to do so, except to avoid the embarrassment that was brought upon him last time, when I called him out on ripping off the results of our community work.
If I hadn't done so, there's a real chance he wouldn't even have asked these modders for permission to use their work. But since he did ask them, they're too flattered to be among the chosen ones, to ask for money or even a backlink.
I'm inclined to give him the benefit of a doubt that at least half of that might have been GOG's fault, if not most of it. Be it as it may, though, he has reached out to the community and has been willing to listen and fix mistakes. And he seems to be a genuine fan of SS2. If this was EA or Squeenix, they wouldn't give a rat's ass and the best you'd hope for dialogue would be a hired "community manager" doing PR and having no real influence.
Quote Posted by Kolya
I think you'll notice this whole thing has left me a tad bit disappointed and jaded.
Um, weren't you the one who wrote that incredibly pissy open letter right at the start, calling Kick a parasite who has never achieved anything on his own and whatnot for selling the game he bought the rights to? I haven't really noticed any significant change to your attitude ever since.
Kolya on 18/2/2021 at 01:32
@ZylonBane - No, Kick didn't offer. That's not what I meant. And yes, you're right it's not the same, because you still have control over your mods. But I felt it was the same because it was an egotistical decision of everyone involved. We should have at least talked about how we as a community want to deal with this offer. Instead everyone decided for themselves. Good job by him, splitting us up that way. We should have been smarter, especially since it wasn't the first time he came around to harvest.
If you had refused as by your example you can bet that Kick would have made you a better offer, because SHTUP is worth a few thousand dollars of work that his team would have had to put in themselves to get an equally polished game out the door.
He could never even have called it an
Enhanced Edition without SHTUP or putting in the work. People would have looked at it, laughed, pointed at your thread at ss.org and said: "Thanks but I prefer the community's enhancements."
Now they are gonna say how great SS2EE looks. End. That is a very real difference.
Quote Posted by Starker
Um, weren't you the one who wrote that incredibly pissy open letter right at the start, calling Kick a parasite who has never achieved anything on his own and whatnot for selling the game he bought the rights to? I haven't really noticed any significant change to your attitude ever since.
Yes, that was when Kick sent his Larry to demand SSPortable to be taken down. One might say not much has changed on their side either, since NightDive still haven't released any game of their own making. Instead they are releasing an Enhanced Edition with mods. That is what we are talking about here. And you're right, my attitude about the value of voluntary community work has not changed.
Starker on 18/2/2021 at 02:10
Quote Posted by Kolya
Yes, that was when Kick sent his Larry to demand SSPortable to be taken down. One might say not much has changed on their side either, since NightDive still haven't released any game of their own making. Instead they are releasing an Enhanced Edition with mods. That is what we are talking about here.
So, once the remake releases, you'll have a different opinion about Kick? I somehow doubt that. And Kick's dev credentials aside, I'd say that things like being open to dialogue and feedback and releasing the source code indicate that Kick's motives are not simply preying on / exploiting the community in blind pursuit of profit.