Nameless Voice on 7/2/2021 at 23:01
Dark's rigging tools are... awkward to use, but the engine can cope with much more complicated models than the originals, we just never had an artist skilled enough to make faithful remodels (one who was also willing to struggle with the tools.)
Though I think there are Blender-based tools these days for importing characters which are less arcane.
Jashin on 9/2/2021 at 01:52
No amount of faithfulness will appease the purist :cheeky:
That said, SS2EE is more anticipated than the SS remake.
Kolya on 13/2/2021 at 22:42
Quote Posted by Valet2
The devs asked each of them if they are ok with the mod being included. Of course you could ask for some money for the work you did 15 years ago, but being a grown man would you choose a few hundred-ish bucks (would they really make you feel better?) or you would be glad to leave a footprint in the game which would be preserved for generations?
Okay.
A) Many of these mods are not that old, some are even in active development and you know that, Valet2.
B) You're argument is exactly what's been used on people in the software industry millions of times before: "You'll get a lot of exposure and recognition!"
That is simply exploitative logic. Night Dive is going to make a lot of money of this added value. They themselves won't release SS2EE for free, just to leave a footprint in gaming history or whatever. So why should anyone who worked on these mods be happy with a fuzzy feeling? And why are they only leaving a footprint in the game now?
That being said, almost all of them signed up for self-exploitation, so the point is moot.
prengle on 14/2/2021 at 06:50
Quote Posted by Valet2
The devs asked each of them if they are ok with the mod being included. Of course you could ask for some money for the work you did 15 years ago, but being a grown man would you choose a few hundred-ish bucks (would they really make you feel better?) or you would be glad to leave a footprint in the game which would be preserved for generations?
"would you rather be compensated by a for-profit publisher for your work that they want to include in a paid product, or let them idly make money off your content that the average person will see as said publisher's original output and not yours?"
i realize that i sound smug here and that kolya already brought up several of the points i wanted to make, but come on dude you should know better
Valet2 on 14/2/2021 at 08:09
Nono, it's just my point of view for today, based on some experience. I'd be more than happy to learn counter-arguments and see the situation wider.
If the company decides to pay the mod authors, what amount of payment would be preferable? And what rights would be remained for them? Do these mods remain free for use and further edit, or it's now a part of the official game? And why the current interrogation ("can we use your mod? - yeah, sure") is unacceptable?
For me there's the only adequate option is if they hire the people who did awesome mods to make new ones for the game exclusively, officially, with payment and stuff.
Donating to the authors sounds okay, but there would be fights between them because someone would think his contribution was bigger, or some people won't get money at all (becasue they did a couple textures and disappeared).
Starker on 14/2/2021 at 13:25
Didn't we already go through all this with paid mods?
prengle on 14/2/2021 at 23:44
Quote Posted by Valet2
Nono, it's just my point of view for today, based on some experience. I'd be more than happy to learn counter-arguments and see the situation wider.
If the company decides to pay the mod authors, what amount of payment would be preferable? And what rights would be remained for them? Do these mods remain free for use and further edit, or it's now a part of the official game? And why the current interrogation ("can we use your mod? - yeah, sure") is unacceptable?
For me there's the only adequate option is if they hire the people who did awesome mods to make new ones for the game exclusively, officially, with payment and stuff.
Donating to the authors sounds okay, but there would be fights between them because someone would think his contribution was bigger, or some people won't get money at all (becasue they did a couple textures and disappeared).
i would personally be fine with the modder in question being paid by the publisher (how much and in what way, i'm not sure actually - at the very least give the modder a small flat fee, like a couple thousand bucks), while their mod remains freely accessible to use + free for other modders to use/edit/reupload with credit and permission from the original author. there is nothing inherently wrong with asking for permission to use a mod in another project
per se, this is how the vast majority of modding communities function and i see absolutely no issue with it as long as everything is done freely out of passion for the original work.
what i find unacceptable is a publisher like nightdive swooping in and asking for permission to use a free mod, in a paid game, without those modders receiving any compensation other than a paltry "thank u vewy much fow wetting us use youw mod :3" mention in a credits section at the end of the game... that most people won't pay attention to. to me this is pretty much the same thing as an artist/musician/etc. being asked to do something for free because of the "exposure" that they never end up getting. it's parasitical on the publisher's end.
nightdive was founded nearly a decade ago, they've made over a million on a kickstarter, they've worked with far, far worse publishers like zenimax, they sell god knows how many old games on steam and gog and so on, i'm pretty sure they have the damn money to pay a couple modders a little bit for the work they did, no matter how old that work is. if the
modder says yes then that's on them and i don't think they should be lynched for it, for instance, i know for a fact wesp's unofficial patch is prepackaged with vtmb on gog and all of that money goes to activision. i'm just saying that if i was in the same position i'd at least ask for enough money to pay my rent for the month or something, i think more mod authors should speak up on this and i think companies like nightdive should at least have the common decency to compensate these people. this is not being done for the sake of game preservation, nightdive is doing this so they can squeeze a little extra money out of an ip they've tried milking to death with rereleases, a remake that still hasn't been released and a shoddy attempt at creating a sequel. they have done a few things for game preservation in the past and i have to give credit where credit is due (the system shock powermac source code release), but i am far from convinced that's their #1 priority
sorry that this turned into another rant about crony capitalism but i think i made my point :wot:
Quote Posted by Starker
Didn't we already go through all this with paid mods?
the 2015 steam workshop paid mods crap was kinda similar but also not really? that was a small group of modders charging for their own work with valve and zenimax taking a massive chunk of their profits (75% if i remember correctly), whereas this is a publisher asking for permission to charge for work done by modders without paying said modders at all. sounds similar but i think this is its own issue
Starker on 15/2/2021 at 00:47
Oh, I'm pretty sure I've seen every argument that has been made in this thread multiple times over. And the rebuttals and the rebuttals to the rebuttals and so on.
ZylonBane on 15/2/2021 at 02:34
Quote Posted by prongles
what i find unacceptable is a publisher like nightdive swooping in and asking for permission to use a free mod, in a paid game, without those modders receiving any compensation other than a paltry "thank u vewy much fow wetting us use youw mod :3"
You are engaging in fallacious logic, and thus accomplishing nothing more than making yourself look silly.
Look, this is very simple:
* Game modders already give their work to the community for free, explicitly enhancing the "value" of the game.
* Anyone who buys the game can install any of the available free mods, freely, for free.
* Therefore, a publisher who decides to directly include free community mods does not add any more value to the game
than already exists, they're just removing steps to realize that value.
So while you may
think your argument is, "You're selling my mod, therefore give me money", in actuality it's, "You removed steps, therefore give me money."
Kolya on 16/2/2021 at 02:47
The value is that NightDive's game will be better liked, more recommended, more units sold etc because it has been updated by mods. You are kidding yourself if you think that everyone who buys the game would have installed all these mods anyway. And Kick knows that the game is worth less without mods. Everyone can see that by a glance. That is why he came by. Not to remove extra steps out of human kindness. Considering your usually cynical demeanor against any newbie you're showing some astounding naivety and willingness to give credit to this guy. For no good reason one might add.