zombe on 10/7/2015 at 16:17

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A relative is asking for help in getting a computer for his child (13yo iirc) - unfortunately, price is an issue and there is no limit on what it should be able to do. Does not help that EUR is taking a nosedive lately vs USD (although significantly less than predicted, have not even reached parity yet which i was expecting already ... seems that USD is having hard times also, helping EUR not to look shit).

Budget is probably around 400€, but possibly can be stretched up to 600€ with pains. Primary use for the PC is likely just gaming, general internet (she is good with English and seems to have an inquisitive mind) and social stuff. She has other interests too that might benefit: she takes part in robot-building-programming competitions (doing well) and other such things, sooner or later will want to try graphical stuff etc. No-one else will have an use for the PC. Have looked around myself lately, and, damn, the budget makes it a bit too hard for me - i just do not know enough of the stuff that is currently out there.

My general thoughts:
* memory: 8GB (4GB tends to get annoying rather fast, a situation that would likely get rapidly more cumbersome as the time moves on)
* HDD: 250GB. No SSD, that is just way too expensive and would be mostly just convenience. Capacity should be fine too as it is easy to add extra HDD later when an actual need arises.
* ??? CPU: 2 core minimum. 4 would be nice, but i am not sure whether it would see sufficient actual use.
* ??? GPU: i do not have a clue :/ ... this stuff ages too fast for me.
* ??? MOBO: whatever fits and is not shit.
* the rest: whatever fits the above.
* monitor / keyboard / mice are not part of budget (already have).

The PC will, with virtual certainty, never see gradual upgrades in its lifetime (besides perhaps HDD/GPU) - so, stability/longevity over tinkering (a'la: overclocking etc).

Suggestions welcome (can use whatever site as an example - cannot/won't buy from any of them, but fine as an example). Whatever gets decided on, likely, will be bough from Ordi, which does not have an English interface - so, if you by some bizarre coincidence understand the language then you already know where it is (in which case you can suggest alternatives as: "Peale seda, kui originaal Kartulisalong nime vahetas, on Kartulisalongi tiitli saanud Ordi - vähemalt minu silmis").

zombe on 11/7/2015 at 16:51

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Did some more research.

Yeah, 250GB hdd does not make any sense and difference between 500GB and 1TB is either negative or minimal depending on manufacturer.
Intel core i3 4170, has only 3MB cache, but slightly better bandwidth compared to the 42€ option below.
Sapphire r7 360 oc, could not figure out what chip it is based on - so, could not compare (inc. price for derivatives) ... i know nothing of AMD stuff :(. What i gathered:
-> 2GB memory, 28nm new and hence unlikely to go obsolete right tomorrow (DX12). Conf: 768:48:16 104GB/s [17pix 51tex], ComputeUnits: 12 (thous are separate?), est: 1630GFLOPS. TDP: 100W !!!

--- current options list ---

HDD: (list: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1400&PSize=9998) ) longevity >> capacity, but i do not know what is reliable nowadays (ie. manufacturer generally, not new tech that has not already proven itself etc) ...
* 47€ : Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 500GB SATA3 6Gb/s 7200rpm 16MB cache (ST3500413AS )
* 59€ : Toshiba 1TB 3.5" SATA3 600MB/s 7200rpm 32MB cache (DT01ACA100)
CPU: (list: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1300) ) 4 cores, while nice, is definitely out of reach (as far as utility/price is concerned), so ...
* 42€ : [LGA1156?] Intel Core i3-540 3,06GHz 73W TRAY (uh!?, what does that mean?), HT, so 4 threads, L2: per core 256KB (ie. HT shared), L3: per CPU 4MB ... however max memory is DDR3-1333, the rest does not tell me much: ( (http://ark.intel.com/products/46473/Intel-Core-i3-540-Processor-4M-Cache-3_06-GHz) )
* 132€ : Intel Core i3-4170 3,7GHz, 54W 22nm (Haswell) VT BOX (BX80646I34170) ... the only difference i can see is DDR3-1600 and lower temps as expected ( (http://ark.intel.com/products/77490/Intel-Core-i3-4170-Processor-3M-Cache-3_70-GHz) )
... the rest of the options are of the M variety or AMD and/or stuff of which i know even less about. It is said that Intel has less but better cores and Amd is the opposite (ie. it is likely that Amd processors will become more powerful as time moves on and the programs get less shit) ... at least thous are the rumors i have heard around the water cooler.
Fan: i assume the stock fan that usually comes with the CPU is fine ... right? (list for alternatives: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=2100&PSize=9998))
MEM: Once upon a time memory speed was the king, now the cache rules and memory does not matter much (with my programmer glasses on assuming the programmers of the apps did their job well) ... however, opinions/suggestions/hard-earned-knowledge welcome!
* 33€*2 : Kingston 4GB 1333MHz DDR3 Non-ECC CL9 DIMM SR (Single Rank) x8, KVR13N9S8/4 (SODIMM / CL11 variants have the same price [i assume CL11 uses less power or something, the latency should not matter])
... 1600 variants also have all the same price, but the 42€ CPU won't take it.
GPU: (list: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1700&Page=1&PSize=9998) ) looking at Nvidia side, which i at least know something about:
* 100€ : MSI nVidia GeForce GT740 2GB GDDR5 128BIT VGA, DVI, HDMI 993/5000 DirectX11 PCI-Exp (N740-2GD5) (GK107-425-A2) (conf: 384:32:16 80GB/s [16pix 32tex], est: 762GFLOPS) TDP: 64W
* 123€ : MSI nVidia GeForce GTX750 OC 2GB GDDR5 128BIT DVI, HDMI,VGA 1059/5000 DirectX11 PCI-Exp (N750- 2GD5/OC) (GM107-300-A2) (conf: 512:32:16 80GB/s [17pix 51tex], est: 1044GFLOPS) TDP: 64W
* 218€ : MSI nVidia GeForce GTX960T OC +Batman Arkkham City Knight 2GB GDDR5 128BIT 1xDVI,1x HDMI,3xDP 1241/7010 DirectX11 PCI-Exp (GTX 960 2GD5T OC) (conf: cannot determine, assuming 760Ti 1344:112:32 192GB/s [29pix 102tex], est: 2460GFLOPS) TDP: 170W!!
Audio: nothing dedicated, mobo must provide.
Mobo: i have no idea: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1100&PSize=9998)
* :/ ??? ... probable preference: reliability >> future-features. I assume everything supports dual channel.
PSU: (list: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1810&PSize=9998) ) just the first 500W
* 40€ : Chieftec GPA-500B8 85+ 500W, Active PFC, 120mm,,3xSATA,2xATA,1xPCIe(6+2-pin),1x8pin CPU,120mm fan
DVD: cheapest junk i found
* 15€ : DVD -/+ RW Samsung 24x8x DVD+RW/ 24x6x DVD-RW MUST+ 12x DVD-RAM, SATA Bulk, DL S224DB/BEBE või S224FB/BEBE
Card-reader: optional, but probably needed.
* 14€ : Frontier 9-1+ ID kaardi lugeja int 3,5" - CF, SM, IBM MD, MM Card, Secure Digital Card, Memory Stick reader, RS seeria USB 2.0 must
Case: (list: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1800&PSize=9998) )
* 21€ : Frontier SA22M-BK/BK no-PSU 2x3,5",3x5,25",2xUSB2,0 2xUSB3.0, Mic/Audio,410x180x350mm must mATX (wtf: cannot find a picture. Only an unreliable hint that it might be this: (http://www.frontier.com.tw/index.asp?page=products&ID=case&It=22m&Type=MYTH&Ex=feature) )

Rough sum: 235€ + ~55€mobo + 123€ GPU = ~410€ + assembly and testing (neglible if anything).

Questions:
* What is wrong with the 42€ CPU (first gen heat generator, but looks performant and functional)?
* There is snowballs chance in hell i picked a reasonable GPU, what should i use instead?
* Mobo!?
* Does this compiled junk even work together (case says: "Sufficient depth could support 270~320mm long VGA Card" and 218€ GPU says: "273 x 130 x 37")?
* None of the Nvidia GPUs i listed seem to have DX12 currently - tech problem? Should one actually care?

PS. not searching for one final set, more like options to offer down the line.

zombe on 4/8/2015 at 18:36

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Finalizing the revised build, more knowledgeable eyes sought for:


Budget is 500€ - a bit stretched already, but acceptable.

Case: finding a case was a pain and there probably are no alternatives available in the shop - given requirements: does not look horrendous, has 3.5" external slot for cardreader, at least 2 3.5" internal slots for HDDs, front panel USB/etc, mesh vents, preferably mATX. (http://www.ezcool.com.tw/products-detail.php?id=2599&c=655)
CPU: dual core would be an option too (Intel G3450 Dual Core 3,4/3M ~70€ less), but current choice is as listed (+extra HW threads +MHz -Price = umm, would be nice and CPU tends to last for longer vs GPU) ... really torn between thous two options either way. The final recipient is not sure either - so, i have to make the call.
GPU: Should be sufficient for quite some time and size is fairly small (165x111x33) (http://media.msi.com/main.php?g2_itemId=110667) List: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1700&PSize=9998&PGC=PCIE)
PSU: calculator suggested 430W, but then suggested 500W when i added an extra HDD. I have no idea if what i have selected has the connectors needed or whether the device is any good - Help! All i know is that at least 3 sata ones are needed (4 are listed in shop). List: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1810&PSize=9998&PGC=PSU)
Mobo: all the mATX ones in reasonable price range are H81M and the rest tells me little. Seems to have the needed USBs for front (which i found that some mobo's do not). Not sure the PSU has what it expects. List: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1100&PSize=9998&PGC=LGA1150)
MEM: 8GB, should last for PC lifetime - so, taking all the slots is fine. Also, dual channel helps considerably with BW tasks.
HDD: Bigger seagate drives seem to be universally significantly more unreliable than ANY alternative - but 500G ones are still fine i think :/

The PC is expected to not be extended much in its lifetime - besides, perhaps, HDD/GPU after some years of usage. No-one is going to tinker (OC etc) with it, but it will see heavy use.

Would like to get the thing ordered / constructed [by the shop] / delivered / set up / and forwarded to owner as soon as possible - timely help greatly appreciated.

bikerdude on 5/8/2015 at 08:43

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* Whats the link to the online shop you buying all this from so I can have a look at the cases they have
* These CPU look almost identical, the only difference I can see if the i3 has a better ponboard GPU, so the obvious choice is to go for the G3450.
* Yes, this is a good little card for the money.
* Doesn't that case come with a (http://www.amazon.co.uk/EZCOOL-PSU-LO-NOISE-BLACK-CASING/dp/B002CW8WSG/ref=sr_1_5?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1438763702&sr=1-5&keywords=500w+ezcool+psu#customerReviews) generic 500w PSU..? if you have to have to buy a PSU a single 12v rail based unit is recommended.
* The only things that spring to mind with the MSI H81M-E34 is only 2 memory slots, and no PCI slots(should you whish to use an old XFi/Audigy sound card. What is your budget for the mobo?
* yes and no, if you can afford is just get a 16gb DDR3-1333 kit - Intel CPU's don't care about speed or timings.
* If you have the budget I would get a 64gb SSD as you boot drive and the 500GB HDD for Data/Games etc.

zombe on 5/8/2015 at 11:08

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Ah, food for thought - appreciated.

Whats the link to the online shop you buying all this from so I can have a look at the cases they have
(http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&IC=1800&PGC=MATX)
for mATX, but there is nothing: Frontier has insuficient 3.5" dive bays, Loop i could not find info about (min. needed: 2x3.5" internal, 1x3.5" external/front [ie. the old floppy hole], 2xUSB + headphones in front and none of it covered). The rest have prices skyrocketing (all w/o PSU) and look horrendous. Actual stats / makeup of cases changes without notice and usually without change in product codes - basically, i must rely on the shop to tell if it fits my requirements (+other parts). The one i selected was the only one.
Could go ATX, but why bother (minor increase in price and more empty space)?

These CPU look almost identical, the only difference I can see if the i3 has a better onboard GPU, so the obvious choice is to go for the G3450.
One has HT the other does not. So, it is (2core/2thread vs 2core/4thread) : (http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/300/Intel_Core_i3_i3-4170_vs_Intel_Pentium_Dual-Core_G3450.html)
If the shop prices would make sense (a'la 117$ vs 75$) then i would go i3 without blinking an eye (HT works quite well with multi-process env [ie. cores usually highly underutilized]) - but the prices do not make any sense (132€ vs 75€). Just 2 cores is a bit crap today and gets rapidly worse in future. Whatever CPU i choose - the final recipient will be stuck with it for a long while. The "full" list of CPU the shop offers: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&I...ItemID=1300-1432&IC=1300)

Doesn't that case come with a generic 500w PSU..?
Nope, all cases are without PSU (except some "special" cases with 230W/320W). In fact - all cases come without any of the extras by default. So, unless the case has custom/special PSU (in which case i would wary buying it as replacing might turn out to be problematic) they won't have one with them.

if you have to have to buy a PSU a single 12v rail based unit is recommended.
I have no idea what that means :/ ... which is why i cry for help :)
PSU list: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&I...ItemID=1300-1432&IC=1810&PSize=9998&PGC=PSU)

The only things that spring to mind with the MSI H81M-E34 is only 2 memory slots, and no PCI slots(should you whish to use an old XFi/Audigy sound card. What is your budget for the mobo?
I seriously doubt it will ever see a dedicated sound card (too eccentric for their wallet i presume). Last soundcard i used was in 1997 - so, don't know much about them and what they cost. Also, i thought all soundcards use PCI-Exp-1 for ages ... is PCI still relevant for anything newly bought?

yes and no, if you can afford is just get a 16gb DDR3-1333 kit - Intel CPU's don't care about speed or timings.
Went googling after voodoo47 message - it is a bit mixed bag. Memory market is too volatile and hence no-one really wants to make thous things - not much hope for significant price pressure. So, taking up all the slots will bite later if it come to pass that 8GB does not cut it anymore. 1333 variants are more expensive in shop. Only choice would be 2x8 1600 Kingston kit for 109€ ... which is way too much.
Currently 16GB seems to be only good for: streaming (won't happen for at least 3+ years and then probably never), video editing (hindrance, not killer), VM (lol, no). But 8GB recommended games are coming - however, i doubt they have money to throw at the latest'n'greatest games around (so, might turn out to be in the category of: hindrance, not killer).
I think i probably need to have 4 slots with 2x4 filled at start to be absolutely sure - is it worth it? And what should i pick: (http://www.ordi.ee/EPood/Products.aspx?MC=KOMP&I...ItemID=1300-1432&IC=1100&PSize=9998&PGC=LGA1150)

First one with 4 slots i noticed is ASROCK B85M-PRO4: (http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/B85M%20Pro4/?cat=Specifications)
B(usiness) chipset - whatever that entails. First time i have ever heard of AsRock ... with noticeable amount negative murmurs around internet.

If you have the budget I would get a 64gb SSD as you boot drive and the 500GB HDD for Data/Games etc.
The total budget is 500€ and is already broke, but probably still acceptable - any SSD is definitely out.