Turtle on 1/10/2009 at 06:16
Some of the people in this thread seem to be as dense as a fucking black hole.
Pro-tip: Those people aren't AR.
Kolya on 1/10/2009 at 06:26
Hence the thread title.
AR: Unless you were trying to complete fett's post, it's compliment.
fett on 1/10/2009 at 13:33
Quote Posted by PeeperStorm
Who's talking about home schooling? Just setting aside a little time to help them with homework would be a big improvement in most families. Or taking 'em to the library once in a while. Or maybe getting in an hour of educational activity each weekend during the preschool years instead of watching
CSI reruns. Anyone who relies on the schools to do
all of the educating is doing their kids a disservice.
This.
But the wider scope of the problem is what the institution does to a child's innate sense of confidence and curiosity. They have very little control over their interests or learning. They're told when to eat, when to piss, when it's okay to talk. Most of what goes on is not for the learner - it's for the convenience of the institution and the teacher. That's a necessary evil inherent to the process of public school, but you can only back an animal into a corner for so long before it either surrenders or rebels, resulting in the classroom conditions in that video.
AR - thank you. No doubt we're fucking things up but good still, but we've only been at it a short time. To be honest, I still don't think we're doing better than the local public school yet, but we will be in a few months. I
am seeing the difference one-on-one learning makes and while our progress right now is slower than I'd like, the quality is a million times better IMO. If statistics can be trusted, we'll stay behind this first year, then start covering nearly one and a half years material in a years time from there forward. I hope.
Thief13x on 1/10/2009 at 13:58
wow
someone who's actually homeschooling for a good reason
scarykitties on 1/10/2009 at 14:04
I'm curious, fett; which courses do you assist your child with the most? I'm guessing arithmetic is up there, and maybe some history, geography, and phonics?
Martin Karne on 1/10/2009 at 17:24
I can be stupid anywhere, even in Europe oh wait...
fett on 1/10/2009 at 18:39
I help with a little of everything, but we're not really teaching in "subjects" as they are traditionally approached. We focus on a specific interest and allow those disciplines to come naturally out of the projects or study that the interest inspires.
Here's a good example - Our 8 year old has shown an intense interest in medieval era castles and knights. This started with watching me play Oblivion. He started to play Oblivion and had to learn how to do all the buying and selling, choosing quests, etc. This seems simple to an adult, but for a 2nd grader, it incorporates a wide variety of math and map skills. That led to him playing Lords of the Realm (old Win95) game with more advanced math concepts like percentages, division, etc. Of course he's doing a fair bit of reading in these games, but he's also found a bunch of castle books at the library (where he learned how to use the filing system to track them down). The big difference between this and school is that he doesn't give a shit about Dick, Jane, and Spot, but he's VERY interested in learning how to finish the quest or learn what a catapult did - so he's self-motivated to read. He started building his own castle out of boxes and other items, which required him to learn how to use a ruler. So far in this single interest, we've "covered" math, history, geography, reading, and brushed on social sciences (talking about the role that royalty and knights played in Europe).
We've basically divorced ourselves from the idea of grade levels, "standards," and unquestioned lists of "what a child should know" at a certain age. Those are artificial constructs developed for the sole purpose of assessing the effectiveness of the institution. We're finding it more natural to follow the aptitude of the child in question and try to relate all those "subjects" to a natural interest, rather than separating them and hammering them home for the purpose of passing a test or getting a grade. Obviously this will shift into a more structured thing IF we are still homeschooling into high school because what we're doing now is radically different from college. The hope is to teach him how to learn, and how to find and develop the tools he needs to succeed at things that are relevant to him. We also obviously have to supplement from time to time if there's a gap in the learning, and in that case, I've got my eye on the school standards for a higher ranked state (Connecticut).
As far as helping him, my job is just to be available as a resource, to provide materials and direction when needed, and sometimes to crack the whip. I'm trying to recognize the learning that takes place in normal day to day activities and play - both which are crowded out of a public school child's life. He seems to be more at peace and confident the more he's able to go at his own pace, rest or play when he needs to, and work when he wants to (and you'd be surprised how much a kid will work when he's not being forced).
I have no idea how any of this would translate to a public classroom, and I'm skeptical that it could.
CCCToad on 1/10/2009 at 19:22
That actually is kindof interesting. Probably the biggest benefit of home schooling (and to a lesser extent, small discussion-based classes) is that it allows the educators to tweak education to take advantage of kid's natural curiosity.
Another method of teaching that I am a big fan of (and is demonstrated to be effective) is the Thayer Method employed at West Point. A quick google search revealed a fairly accurate description:
Quote:
In short, the philosophy is that cadets are responsible for their own learning. They study the material prior to attending class. The learning is then reinforced in class through a combination of group learning and active learning exercises done primarily at the blackboards.
Basically, everyone is expected to be able to "recite" some of the material by the time they get to class, and its one of the reasons the academy has the top undergraduate program in the nation (according to this year's rankings). I think that if the mentality of expecting students to be responsible for their own learning was more widespread, it would go a long way towards improving our educational system.
scarykitties on 1/10/2009 at 19:47
I know that I learn best when I follow my own interests. Case in point, I wanted to make better Thief levels, so I went to the library and borrowed a number of books about medieval castle, cathedral, and manor architecture and medieval life, as well as getting some graph paper to practice designs, while the level work itself requires a fair bit of problem solving and some math.
I like your idea of how to encourage your child's interests, rather than forcing facts. Maybe he'll grow up to be an archaeologist on medieval life, or a teacher on the subject, or an architect if his interests swing that way. All good jobs.
heywood on 2/10/2009 at 00:33
Quote Posted by CCCToad
Another method of teaching that I am a big fan of (and is demonstrated to be effective) is the Thayer Method employed at West Point. A quick google search revealed a fairly accurate description:
...
Basically, everyone is expected to be able to "recite" some of the material by the time they get to class, and its one of the reasons the academy has the top undergraduate program in the nation (according to this year's rankings). I think that if the mentality of expecting students to be responsible for their own learning was more widespread, it would go a long way towards improving our educational system.
Lots of strategies will work when you have an institution filled with people who have already proven themselves to be competitive, self-motivated overachievers and can be tossed if they don't meet standards. I think that in most school systems, if you expect students to be responsible for their own learning, you will end up educating only the ones who are.
Ultimately, most kids aren't going to be responsible for anything that their parent's don't hold them responsible for. With a few exceptions, schools don't have much authority over their students and the kids know it. So unless the discipline and motivation to learn come from the home, the kids just aren't going to have it.
The Stossel piece you linked to points the blame mostly at the schools, but that's only half the story. By that I mean that underperforming teachers and large classes are only half the problem. The other half of the problem is underperforming parents, who fail to teach their kids' discipline and fail to take a strong interest in or active role in their kids' education. Like Fett alluded to, a lot of parents are just using the public school system as a glorified babysitter.
At one point in the video, they showed an out of control high school classroom where the students were climbing over desks and stuff. Meanwhile, the teacher was trying to teach some social studies lesson with Monopoly. I'm not sure which was more sad, seeing teenagers at school behave like toddlers or a teacher using Monopoly as a high school teaching tool. Then I thought that using Monopoly may just have been a desperation move by the teacher to get his students to pay attention to _something_.
I'm 100% for making sure teachers are qualified, holding them responsible, and rewarding them for good performance. However, once we do that, their results are going to be somewhat limited by the raw material they have to work with, so parents have to hold up their end of the bargain too. And many don't. In city school districts, I'd say most don't. And it doesn't take too many unteachable kids to bring the rest of the class down.
Quote Posted by scarykitties
I know that I learn best when I follow my own interests. Case in point, I wanted to make better Thief levels, so I went to the library and borrowed a number of books about medieval castle, cathedral, and manor architecture and medieval life, as well as getting some graph paper to practice designs, while the level work itself requires a fair bit of problem solving and some math.
I like your idea of how to encourage your child's interests, rather than forcing facts. Maybe he'll grow up to be an archaeologist on medieval life, or a teacher on the subject, or an architect if his interests swing that way. All good jobs.
You need a bit of both, I think. Or more precisely, I think you need to make sure your child has the discipline to learn important things that they have no interest in. I personally regret not paying any attention to literature in school. I also regret that I more or less blew off two math classes, statistics and linear algebra, which I've ended up using constantly through grad school and my career. If I had only known then what was going to be important later... (this is why we have curriculums).
