ZylonBane on 14/9/2010 at 21:04
If you somehow failed to notice that a fully-modded AR lets you take down the most powerful enemy in the game in three shots, then yeah, that's pretty odd.
blaydes99 on 15/9/2010 at 04:20
Quote Posted by TheNightTerror
You're too lazy to do it yourself and you did such a horrendous job documenting bug fixes ...
I'm really starting to wonder where you are coming from here. You are calling THEM lazy for putting all this time and effort into making the changes that they feel are best? You're out of line. It's time you just made a contribution instead of complaining about somebody else's hard work.
Comments on the other comments: I also noticed that the AR was super-powerful on my first playthrough. I remember popping rumblers with my AR + anti-personnel bullets in the BOTM level and just loving how I was killing them so easily.
I'll repeat my stance on this: I recently did a play through using the latest ADaOB and it was great. It felt more polished then the retail SS2 (or 2.3 patched version) did. I don't want to change a thing (unless we add more animations to the guns, etc.)
TheNightTerror on 15/9/2010 at 06:13
Kolya, do you really think that there's no point in creating a proper unofficial patch? You have to admit Straylight is more of a reimagining of the game than a patch at this point, there should be another option for players. And if you think I wouldn't redo all of the bugfixes if I had a proper list you're clearly underestimating how stubborn I am.
blaydes99, I was only calling NV lazy. He said he didn't keep up with the documentation on the bug fixes, which means the Straylight patch can't be used as a starting point. I was going to have to examine every object in every .mis file for bugs or compare the original .mis files to the Straylight files to look for inconsistencies, flying blind either way, wasn't hard to talk me out of it at that point.
The way I see it, you can either convince a person that a patch is pointless and near impossible to create, or complain nobody's ever made it -- not both. And if you want to complain it's beyond tactless to complain in a thread started by the person you talked out of the project.
Kefren on 15/9/2010 at 07:55
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
If you somehow failed to notice that a fully-modded AR lets you take down the most powerful enemy in the game in
three shots, then yeah, that's pretty odd.
I bet I missed with some of the shots due to running like the clappers to get away from the big meaty thing that wanted to eat me. I definitely didn't count shots. :-)
Even if I had noticed, I would just have thought, "Hey, this gun is pretty powerful with the right ammo in." Every game has some loot that is better than others. If it made some bits of the game easier that would be fine. After all, in my next game I might have played a scientist who could only use Stasis Field Generators, Viral Proliferators and Crystal Shards, which would be a game of great contrast to the previous one.
NoMis on 15/9/2010 at 07:57
I think the opinions of what a proper patch is just differ here. I see no reason that a patch must only contain bugfixes.
If there would have ever been a real official patch then it might have also contained balancing changes.
I don't think the core experience changes that heavily because of the changes. It's not like you are playing another game.
Kolya on 15/9/2010 at 09:38
Quote Posted by TheNightTerror
Kolya, do you really think that there's no point in creating a proper unofficial patch?
I think there's room for an even more conservative mod. There's always room for more. And that one would give us a broader spectrum: from fixing only visible bugs to also fixing gameplay bugs with ADaoB to making the game sing and dance with Secmod.
I just don't appreciate that you apparently cannot appreciate ADaoB for what it is. Even if it's not a "proper unofficial patch" in your book, because it is not far enough in the conservative spectrum for your taste, it's still damn good for fixing a whole lot of problems, on top of what you would want fixed in your patch. And I wouldn't like it to be cut down just because you cannot see that.
I understand that creating your kind of mod seems unnecessarily hard now, because it would be a subset of ADaoB, and that should be easy to do, right?
It's the same problem with Secmod which includes ADaoB but an earlier version of it, so it doesn't have SHEMP's high-res monitor textures. And likely it never will, because they were such a drag to set up. Should NV have documented every texture re-alignment? Maybe. But can you blame him for just getting it done?
It's worse for the fact that the gamesys is such a monolithic bitch which you cannot break off parts you like. I hope one day we'll have a proper gamesys->XML->gamesys converter, which will allow easy comparison of gamesys files. Maybe I should go bothering that lazy loiterer Telliamed about this.
TheNightTerror on 15/9/2010 at 11:21
That was what I was going to do, use Straylight for a starting point and create a far more conservative version of it to be used for the unofficial patch. Since Straylight has so many bug fixes and a fair amount of them documented it seems like the best place to start from, but having to start from scratch when Straylight is just sitting there and everyone is yelling at you to back away, yeah.
Honestly, I would love Straylight if the tools were simply left alone, what set me off at the time was the idea that it was going to be called the unofficial patch when it was so different, but that's long since settled. I'd appreciate Straylight a lot more if you didn't take the tools out, way I figure it people who don't like the tools won't use them, so why bother getting rid of them?
Doing the texture work is completely different, though, all of the hard work has been done already. Just go wherever you'd find the high res textures, apply the new texture and punch in the numbers NV used. It'd be a significant amount of work but nothing compared to the original job. NV wasn't too keen on that plan for some mysterious reason . . .
I never got far enough to figure out exactly what all had been done to the gamesys, depending on how complicated the work done to it was, I was either going to undo or tone down changes to the gamesys or start with the original one and work my way forward.
Nameless Voice on 15/9/2010 at 11:46
I still think that there are more bugfixes (some of which I know we forgot to document) than gameplay changes, and undoing the gameplay changes would be easier than redoing all the bugfixes.
And the whole thing isn't helped by the fact that I disagree about the tools anyway.
voodoo47 on 16/9/2010 at 16:19
I agree with the like/install and dislike/don't install thing.such a massive bugfix/balance patch always reflects what the authors think is right,no way around this.you either agree with them and install it,or not.
the way I see things,bugfixing and balance changes=patch (that means adding/removing an item here and there or changing weapon requirements is perfectly fine).change the game mechanics (like the way weapons/turrets/cameras etc work)=mod.
this would qualify adaob029 as patch (fixes and balance changes only),and adaob030 as mod (it changes the way how the laser pistol works quite significantly).but I would say,keep going anyway,you have done a great job so far,so I believe you know what you are doing.
guess I was not much of help,as usual :rolleyes:
Nameless Voice on 16/9/2010 at 16:37
Quote Posted by voodoo47
adaob030 as mod (it changes the way how the laser pistol works quite significantly)
It does? It just changes the visuals to make them look better, that's hardly a major change in how it works?
Hey, ADaOB originally replaced the laser pistol with a "plasma pistol" because Straylight didn't have the tech we do now that makes the proper laser beam possible.
