Nameless Voice on 18/9/2010 at 12:59
Quote Posted by Koki
Not my impression from the original thread, but fine by me. I'm not really interested in pointing fingers, nor does it matter. The point still stands, the mod changes way more than it should for something called
Anomalies, Discrepancies and outright Bugs.
Yes, but that's not really helpful. What is too different, which changes should be reverted for an "unofficial patch"?
Quote Posted by unn_atropos
Why did you decrease the amount of Auto-Repair Unit in ADaOB so harsh(2 on multiplayer)?
Straylight documented all of his changes fairly well in the changes.txt inside ADaoB:
Quote Posted by Straylight
With enough Auto-Repair Units in the game to fix almost everything that's already broken, and enough replacement weapons to not bother fixing them if they break, there's just no reason to ever use Repair skill. There are eight of them. I've never even used them all in one game. Two is enough to fix the broken keypad on Rec and one of the broken replicators. Four will get you the keypad, two early broken weapons, and a replicator. If you need more than that, you're probably doing something wrong.
Quote Posted by Muzman
And what of spanners, wrenches and awls? Fretsaws and spokeshaves?! (I do so love awls)
Only giant wrenches are allowed, but can now only be used to break things as opposed to repairing them.
Koki on 18/9/2010 at 15:28
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
Yes, but that's not really helpful. What is too different, which changes should be reverted for an "unofficial patch"?
Honestly, looking at the full changelog reverting is pointless. It would be much faster to make a completely new mod, there aren't that many bugs in SS2 in the first place.
And what is bug and what is not should be quite obvious. Double grenade launcher damage is a blatant typo, so is most likely double Energy damage reduction for the Powered Armor, weapons with different stats for no apparent reason, items stuck in walls and under floor, and so on.
Nameless Voice on 18/9/2010 at 16:15
Most of the major changes are in the gamesys, where as a lot of the bugfixes are in the mission files themselves. Changing a few dozen settings in the gamesys back to their original settings would be much easier than re-modifying all the mission files - especially with more recent changes such as implementing SHEMP.
You could try to mix and match missions and gamesys files but... nah, probably not a good idea.
Edit: I just sorted through the changelogs. Terse version without the long explanations:
Modifications
* Fusion cannon tweaked* now does Incendiary damage too
* Laser Rapier now does a small amount of Incendiary damage
* Assault Rifle & Pistol significantly tweaked
* Skill requirements for repairing Standard weapons reduced
* EMP Rifle made more powerful
* Worm ammo made more plentiful
* Annelid launcher tweaked (larger clip size, faster projectiles)
* Viral Proliferator tweaked to poisons enemies
* Grenades, grenade launcher and grenade damage completely changed
* Hazard suit now offers protection against anti-human attacks, and slight protection against energy
* Increased WormSkin protection against anti-human and energy
* Number of disruption grenades decreased on higher difficulty levels (due to grenade rebalance)
* Number of ICE Picks, Auto-repair units and French-Epstein Devices reduced on higher difficulty levels
* Broken Assault Rifle added to Engineering 1
* Spare vial of Toxin-A removed
* Added broken fusion cannon to ops4 armoury
* Fusion cannon on Rec1 is no longer broken
* The Rumbler that chases Tommy and Rebecca no longer vanishes after they run away
* Broken EMP rifle with modification now actually has modification bonus. New settings match modified EMP Rifle stats
* Fusion Cannon, EMP Rifle and Viral Proliferator now get damage bonuses for skills, etc.
* Laser weapons modified. First changed to plasma, then changed back. Needs checking.
* Hazard suit now makes you completely immune to toxins from worm piles
Bugfixes
* Inclusion of SHEMP high resolution terrain textures (mostly screens and other tech displays)
* Fixed light switch in Med/Sci corridor over training stations
* Med/Sci armoury note is now correctly ticked off
* Added shields on shuttle ports on the training stations and in the Command deck shuttle bays
* Added targets to the shooting range on Ops
* Added ceiling glass to a room in Rec that previously opened out into space
* Realigned many textures and fixed many object placements
* Shrank physics model on a Rickenbacker turret that was very hard to walk past before
* Fixed the hole between the pipes in Rickenbacker Pod 2 where you could easily fall to your death
* Localised Pyrokinesis now deals 1 damage / 400ms instead of 5 damage / 2000ms
* Replaced elevator music with high-quality full-length version from SS1
* Various minor tweaks
* fixed level transition crash bug (after using psi pull)
* fixed exploit that allows leaning through MedSci sub-armoury door
* broken shotgun ammo moved to hybrid inventory (so you don't have to drop your gun when your inv. is full)
* removed med hypo caps (correct healing while being hurt)
* added crystal shard "singing"
* the pistol's slide barrel joints have been reversed to achieve a smooth slide animation
* An accordingly fixed but otherwise original pistol has been added to the mod
* player's weapon becomes invisibile when using Psi Invisibilty
* Psi Burnout no longer wastes your psi points when you have that anti-burnout trait
* fix to stop the security system breaking and security cameras being permanently offline if you hack security, save, and reload
* fixed a game breaking bug that occurs when hacking the replicator on Command before the schematics are uploaded
* fixed non-glowing laser rapier (1011) on hydro2.mis
* fixed invisible monkey corpse (183) on medsci2.mis
* LOG0409 has been assigned to the previously unused character Morris.
* The broken see-through door (1443) on Rec2 has been fixed and all broken doors (-1772) have the Door->translating attribute as well now.
* The bug where stacked batteries sometimes wouldn't fully reload weapons has been fixed
* Equipped implants can not be recycled anymore keeping their bonus
* Fixed polygon overload on Earth.mis, fixed odd fall-through-the-floor error on Eng1.mis
* fixed crystal shard's damage while using the overhead smasher upgrade
* Added multiplayer spawn points into many.mis
* Hazmat suit now allows you to breathe underwater
* Power armour now protects against radiation; removed double-reduction for energy attacks
* Med beds now remove toxins
* various unfrobbable objects no longer highlight in the HUD
* Fixed missing object descriptions
* Plants now move with the elevator between decks
* Citizens on earth are no longer corpses
* Many small tweaks and changse
* Guns found with a modification level now actually have the bonuses from that modification level
* Added SS1 elevator music to elevator
* QBRM "regenerator" signs placed in most QBRMs
* Shotgun Sam's behaviour modified
* Added "GODDESS" lonig/access message during the plot exposition in Ops1
* AIs no longer spawn right outside of the QBRM in Ops2
* Shotgun kickback increased
* Tons of text string, log, item description, etc. changes
Muzman on 19/9/2010 at 04:29
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
Total Devices. Numbers are shown for each difficulty, as follows:
Easy / Normal / Hard / Impossible / Multiplayer.
I.C.E. PicksADaOB: 7 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 6
Vanilla: 6 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 6
French-Epstein DeviceADaOB: 7 / 6 / 3 / 1 / 4
Vanilla: 7 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 7
Auto-Repair UnitADaOB: 8 / 4 / 2 / 2 / 2
Vanilla: 8 / 8 / 8 / 8 / 8
So this is the nub of this argument. Changes aren't that drastic in most cases though right?
I mean, in principle I'd go with the 'don't fuck with things too much' side of things, but it's hard to tell if that's actually happened (and doesn't look like it from the change list).
For what it's worth, I haven't used ADaoB for a long time, so I can only reiterate that earlier point: better to say what's wrong rather than decry the whole thing like it's buggering the game.
There's probably some debate to be had. Seems a bit like the ones surrounding Deus Ex in there; ie redundancy and player expression. Repair unit numbers might have made Repair skill unnecesary, but is the patch meant for skilled players who grasp this? That's the only major point of contention I can think of right now (probably been done before too).
Kefren on 20/9/2010 at 13:26
Quote Posted by Muzman
There's probably some debate to be had. Seems a bit like the ones surrounding Deus Ex in there; ie redundancy and player expression. Repair unit numbers might have made Repair skill unnecesary, but is the patch meant for skilled players who grasp this? That's the only major point of contention I can think of right now (probably been done before too).
Good point. Some people play the game with this knowledge in their minds, and want to maximise every decision as to how they spend CMs. As you say, in some ways they are skilled players.
Having completed the game a large number of times I am probably at least a bit skilled, but never make decisions based on those factors, I always do it in a less mathematical and more human way (i.e. not making optimal decisions). If I play as a mechanic-type who wakes up all augmented (as opposed to a soldier) I would never pick up an auto-repair, and would only use my own repair skills. That kind of playthrough means limited weapons too, so is very tense.
Other times I might play a character who is deadly with weapons (great shot, physically strong) but hasn't a clue how they work - so would never have any repair skill, and would rely on the repair tools throughout.
Not saying any of this to stir things up, but it is true that people play in different ways, so any assumption that "everyone knows x" or "this skill is no use to anyone" is bound to be an oversimplification. No game-changing decision will ever suit everyone, but as long as it is clear what each mod such as ADAOB does then almost everyone is happy since they can install or not install as they wish.
Kolya on 20/9/2010 at 15:32
Quote Posted by Muzman
Repair unit numbers might have made Repair skill unnecesary, but is the patch meant for skilled players who grasp this?
A distinction between skilled and unskilled players is being made via the difficulty levels. If a newbie thinks he has to play on Impossible and then things get tight, who's to blame?
And the player never has to grasp that auto-repair units made the repair skill unnecessary. If my gun breaks and I want to repair it then upgrading/using my repair skill is a natural connection to be made. In fact you'd have to have pre-existing knowledge of the game to say instead:
Oh I'll just wait until I find some magic tool that fixes my gun instead of using my repair skill.Nameless Voice on 20/9/2010 at 15:45
Looking at that list again, I can't help but still think that Straylight took it a bit too far on Impossible. I think I'll bring the number of French-Epstein Devices available on Impossible back up to 2 - enough to fully upgrade one gun, or to apply the final modification to two guns if you get enough Modify skill to perform the first upgrade.
Edit: Re-added one on Hydro3, but it's inside a hackable crate (hack skill 2 required). Seems fair.
Koki on 20/9/2010 at 16:43
Do you really think that in a single player game balance is so god damn important?
FYI, if I played with the mod, you could remove ALL F-E devices from the game and I STILL wouldn't get Modify for the very simple reason I can't afford it. At all. I would simply play with unmodified weapons. I dunno, maybe this is what you wanted, make the life on Impossible even harder. If so, great job.
Repair and Modify are both minor, situational skills and it's obvious from the start that they are. I have no idea why you're so keen on making them all-important. Maybe next you could make half the security crates broken instead so that Repair gets a buff and that horrible useful Hack gets nerfed?
RocketMan on 20/9/2010 at 20:28
Put a sock in it Koki.
Your "constructive" comments reek of sarcasm, condescension and misinformation.
Nameless Voice on 20/9/2010 at 20:45
Quote Posted by Koki
I dunno, maybe this is what you wanted, make the life on Impossible even harder. If so, great job.
Not quite sure who the "you" that you're referring to is, probably one of those vague general "you"s; but it's certainly what Straylight wanted, since he said so explicitly in the changelog.
Quote Posted by Straylight
I think we could do with a few less. Removing the ARUs and FEDs will
have a significant impact on Impossible mode. Much more so than
removing them altogether would affect Easy or Normal modes. These
devices have a mitigating effect on the increased cost of skills in
higher levels.
Nothing should be so easy in "Impossible" mode. Removing the FEDs
completely from Impossible will leave you with weapons that do less
damage and use more ammo, both of which narrow your margin of error
and use up the available ammo faster. That's in addition to the more
expensive skills requiring more of your upgrade modules to get to the
same skill levels. You'll also be firing more rounds to kill the same
number of enemies, thus wearing out the weapons faster.
