Chade on 7/7/2013 at 14:57
Hrmm. At the end of the day, the EM guys weren't the ones starting the inter-forum bickering here.
For my part, I'm hoping to have the opportunity to ask as many "just the facts, ma'am" questions as possible whenever any relevant discussion come up. I'm not going to bother asking questions on subjective topics where no-one who distrusts them will believe anything they say. That would be a waste of everyone's time.
spyhopping on 7/7/2013 at 16:48
Sounds good to me. I'm happy to give no-frills facts, we'll all be getting something out of it then. Some of you here might think I'm biased, but hopefully you're not going to think I'm a liar too. :sweat:
Shinrazero on 7/7/2013 at 19:31
Quote Posted by spyhopping
Yes, I am quite aware that this is a different forum with a different TOU and I'm not a mod here. I really don't understand why that is relevant to what I said.
Yeah. I'm really not advertising!
Inviting us repeatedly to post over there could be considered low level advertising. Those forums exist to promote discussion on a product that EM hopes people will buy. Just saying.
Dia on 8/7/2013 at 02:02
I agree Shinrazero. However, I will apologize to all my old Taffer friends here for allowing my temper as well as my distrust of EM mods to get the better of me. Guess I just have zero tolerance for EM mods (& EM forum flag wavers) infiltrating our forums and offering all the little children candy to tempt them into wholeheartedly supporting (what I feel to be) the travesty EM is in the process of creating. I just find it oddly coincidental that one of 'theirs' gets banned here and next thing you know we have three more to replace the first one. Oh well, I guess EM has the right to free advertising and PR just like any other corporation and I guess TTLG must seem like the perfect platform for that. I hope they answer all your questions in a satisfactory manner, guys. I honestly do. Well, aside from all the 'We can't tell you that yet but you're ALL gonna LOVE it' bits.
Renzatic on 8/7/2013 at 07:21
Quote Posted by Dia
I just find it oddly coincidental that one of 'theirs' gets banned here and next thing you know we have three more to replace the first one.
Thiefessa was sort of an unofficial, self admitted "neutral" mod who claimed she posted her of her own free will. Whether she was or not, I have no idea.
On the other hand, B1skit is one of the official EM public relations guy. He and his predecessors have been posting here practically since Thief 4 was announced way back in the day.
As for the rest, maybe they're paid. Maybe they're not. Maybe they actually liked the game, and want to vainly try and allay our fears and wailing, gnashing teeth. Hell, I dunno.
Whatever's going on, it's not something worth getting worked up over or take so personally, Dia. You obviously don't like the game, but you don't have to act like they're doing what they're doing to spite and lie to you.
Nuth on 8/7/2013 at 07:49
FWIW(and maybe I'm naive), I take the EM mods(yes, even thiefessa/Viktoria) and Ashpolt at their word and believe their impressions of the new game to be genuine. I just have a drastically different view of what a Thief game should be than they do.
Renzatic on 8/7/2013 at 08:03
Quote Posted by Nuth
FWIW(and maybe I'm naive), I take the EM mods(yes, even thiefessa/Viktoria) and Ashpolt at their word and believe their impressions of the new game to be genuine. I just have a drastically different view of what a Thief game should be than they do.
One thing I've learned over the years of watching people freak out and assume the worst over videogame sequels is that there are things that sound a helluva lot worse when talked about, but don't have all that much impact on the actual game. Like you'll have some developer guy talking about how they didn't like A or B about the old games, and they're changing it to C for the sequels because it's more streamlined/easier to use/more modern. They usually describe it in some terrible way that makes it sound like they're dumbing down the whole game, and it causes all the old fans to go balls wild in a bad way.
...then you play the actual game and realize it's just a slight tweak to the gameplay, and not nearly as terrible as you'd expect.
This happened a whole helluva lot when EM was talking about DX:HR, and I've expected something similar to happen here (but worse) since they announced Thief 4.
Now this isn't me saying that I absolutely love everything they've shown us. There are some good things going on, sure. I've seen quite a few things I actually like. But there's a goodly bit of bad that kinda puts a damper on the good things they've shown us.
Truth be told, none of us are going to know how good or bad the game is gonna be until it's just a few months away from being in our hands. I'll be checking up on RPS and Sneaky Bastards to see how it's all coming together before I'll really be able to decide if I like it or not. But right now? Basing your opinions on half implemented features shown off kinda badly and cheesy PR speak that's not necessarily aimed at you is going to cause you nothing but heartache and strife. You don't have to like what they're telling you (and some of it is pretty bad no matter how you look at it), but take it all with a grain of salt. Sometimes the most terrible sounding news is simply a bad turn of phrase.
In other words, don't always assume the absolute worst, and don't assume a bunch of guys making a game are, for some reason or another, The Enemy. Hell, they're just a bunch of guys making a game. They probably want you to like it after all is said and done.
jay pettitt on 8/7/2013 at 08:15
To be sure, it's best to assume people act in good faith, while also sagely knowing that psychology says that motivations are much more tangly than we generally realise. Those two things aren't exclusive.
~oh ~ more's the shame, but I'm glad that SR isn't in this reboot, 'cos to be honest it's looking like a 6/10 game right now. If only they'd distance themselves further from the Looking Glass games by writing a whole new character. At least that way you could judge EM's Thief on it's own merits, not as a direct comparison to an absolute classic.
Dia on 8/7/2013 at 13:48
Well said, Jay. I've wondered more than a few times what prompted EM to do a total reboot of Thief and whether the whole 'reboot' idea came after several years of serious turnover in their T4 department. EM has the potential to have created a satisfactory action/stealth game that could have been successful on its own - at least by the standards of today's general gaming community - so why not just scrap the whole 'Thief' idea and start over with a totally new game? It bothers me that (from what I've read) initially the first team of T4 devs were all for sticking closer to the original Thief saga, but somehow that intention got all twisted/diluted as more T4 employees left and were replaced by others who seemingly had opposite-end-of-the-spectrum ideas. Is EM thinking that the T4 reboot is bound to be a success because DX:HR did so well? T4 is not the game I'd wish EM would create while resting on its DX:HR laurels (though HR is a great game, boss battles excluded). If EM had kept more of the original Thief core elements intact (especially original characters, factions, notable places, as well as Thief's concept of stealth and omg wtf is up with all that leather, mask, ridiculous corset, and seriously overdone emo-ninja eye makeup?) and not included such action-oriented elements such as parkour moves and timed speed runs I may have even given T4 a try. (And are there really going to be 'sticky beams', wherein NuGarrett won't be allowed to plummet to his death ergo no lesson will be learned in the process? Rly.) Instead they seem to be creating a bastardized version of the original Thief, and yes, I know it's a reboot so they can pretty much do what they'd like, but aside from the game's title and name of the main protagonist it seems to have very little to do with Thief as we know it. Yeah, I think T4 is destined to suffer in comparison; it already has, afaic.
Whatever. I decided quite awhile ago that I'm rather relieved Mr. Russell isn't reprising his role as Garrett. Imo it would be an embarrassment at this point.
Omg .... the hands ..... the haaaannnnnddddssss .......
spyhopping on 8/7/2013 at 16:02
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
Inviting us repeatedly to post over there could be considered low level advertising. Those forums exist to promote discussion on a product that EM hopes people will buy. Just saying.
I doubt that the TOU here is so fragile that my encouragements to post on a forum can somehow be construed as advertising. However, I don't want to step on any toes here so count my efforts to recruit you to my evil corporate cause ended.
Quote Posted by Renzatic
As for the rest, maybe they're paid. Maybe they're not. Maybe they actually liked the game, and want to vainly try and allay our fears and wailing, gnashing teeth. Hell, I dunno.
Whatever's going on, it's not something worth getting worked up over or take so personally, Dia. You obviously don't like the game, but you don't have to act like they're doing what they're doing to spite and lie to you.
Cheers. Everything I've said is in all honestly what I felt about the game after I played it and when I got home. I really enjoyed it, it was great fun. I have nothing to gain by being madly positive or lying, and I'm not paid for any of this, (eermm except for the trip to E3 last month...:erm:) I'm a nobody really, just a university student. Perhaps everyone would believe me more if they could actually speak to me in person rather than reading some lazily written text on a website. My main bias has much more to do with the fact that I'm rather too laid back, and don't always pick up on problems with games, but that doesn't mean I'm not passionate about them.
Quote Posted by Renzatic
One thing I've learned over the years of watching people freak out and assume the worst over videogame sequels is that there are things that sound a helluva lot worse when talked about, but don't have all that much impact on the actual game.
You have to take what you can get to paint the whole picture, and sometimes a clumsy statement from a dev can stand out very strongly. But yes, I agree. With Human Revolution I was getting myself a little worked up about highlighting and third person cover, and others even more so. Most of those people and I found that those things were more or less irrelevant to the overall experience in the end (especially highlighting as we got the option to completely turn it off).
