Skilless on 31/10/2002 at 19:10
This started in another thread, and I've moved to this one to continue it.
Quote:
Originally posted by SkillessOriginally, when I played through, I too thought the SP (stealth pistol), as a personal protection weapon, was fairly useless, because its so weak. But when I recently started to replay DE (because I'm playing in Linux now), I found that as an assassin's weapon, it is just plain awesome.
The real keys to its use are; its accuracy with a scope in combination with its low recoil, high fire rate and silence. The silencer mod doesn't come for awhile (for the sniper's rifle -> in the MJ12 Armory after you are captured), so the stealth pistol becomes your substitute until that time. Make sure to save a scope and 1 or 2 accuracy mods for the SP early on. There are two scopes in the first mission, one for the mini-crossbow and one for the stealth pistol. There are several accuracy mods early on. I saved two for the stealth pistol. Two shots are all you need to take out NSF terrorists, which are your primary concern for the first 2 or 3 missions. If you can get a clean headshot off on an unsuspecting NSF, the near-zero recoil of the stealth pistol will allow you a second shot almost immediately. That's all you need. In unzoomed mode, the weapon seems VERY inaccurate, but with the scope on, it is deadly. The listed max distance for the stealth pistol is 300 feet, but I've easily pulled off shots (at the NSF warehouse for example), that had to be in excess of 150 yards (450 feet)! The stealth pistol is actually superior to the sniper's rifle, since it has; 0.10 recoil, 10 rounds (or more), and a much faster firing rate. Firing with a low recoil and the scope on means that you can take a second shot with the SP without having to wait for the recoil to calm down. Coming out of scope mode is nearly instantaneous, whereas the SR has a delay. 10mm bullets are also easy to come by.
If I'm going to kill the common troops (NSF, MJ12 or UNATCO) or take a shot at a LAM, I'd much rather waste 10mm bullets than 30.06 which I might need for truly long/accurate shots. Sometimes there are angles on your target that might dictate that you kill them with a single shot, so the SR is the preferred weapon, but most kills can be done so quickly with the SP, that the guard has no time to alert other guards/alarms, and you get away clean.
I don't recall any maps where you couldn't make most shots with the stealth pistol's range. The sniper's rifle is, of course, more powerful, so it takes fewer shots to take out the tougher opponents, and while the 30.06 ammo is harder to come by, by the time you get the silencer mod you'll have more than 75 rounds. Always be sure to add Distance mods to the stealth pistol (wasted on mini-crossbow, as 0.10 x 50 = 55 feet, not a significant amount), and since the SR has 1500 ft. already. Three distance mods give you approx 200 feet of accurate shooting, unscoped.
Basically, here are its pluses;
1. It is silenced: Always a good thing.
2. It has very low recoil: This means you can take an accurate second shot (which is necessary, since it is true that nothing (guard dogs maybe?) seem to be vulnerable to one shot kills from it).
3. Fast fire rate: Seems semi-automatic, but since you need to take a second shot, its good that you can get it off as fast as you can click.
4. With a scope mod, its very accurate: This is the primary problem with the SP, in un-zoomed mode, it can be wild and inaccurate. In zoomed/scoped mode, it is, "...dead balls accurate..." to quote "My Cousin Vinny".
5. 10mm are found in abundance
6. Large clip: Every clip extension mod gives it another bullet (10% of original 10 round clip = 1), so if you get into a situation where you need to fire several rounds quickly, it won't run out too quickly
7. Reload time isn't intolerable, certainly better than the SR's
Baton = breaks boxes/things, or silent takedown if you're low on ammo (chancy, silent, non-lethal takedown)
Prod = use on a single opponent guarding an area that you can sneak up on, with others in the vicinity (silent, non-lethal takedown)
Tranq darts/Mini-crossbow = Multiple enemies, at a distance that allows me to seek cover once darts are released (nearly silent, non-lethal, have to have cover and hope for target to not activate alarm). Underwater use as well.
SP = For all but the longest shots or tougher opponents up close (silent, lethal, numerous, close-long distance takedowns).
SR = Extreme range, toughest opponents, one shot kills (silent once mod is found, breaks cameras/security systems with enough skill points, lethal, one shot takedowns)
BTW, with "Advanced" pistol skills, it takes one tranq dart + one 10mm bullet from a SP to kill a Karkian. Just wait for the Karkian to stop "squealing" and then pop him with the SP once. Plop.
Skilless on 31/10/2002 at 19:12
Quote:
Originally posted by juveli
Ok, this is a bit off-topic, but... Skilless , why you use a scope in your stealth pistol instead of laser sight? If I remember correctly, laser gives a same accuracy bonus as scope and you don't have to waste precious seconds for zooming, not to mention the small perception area with zoom on...Skilless on 31/10/2002 at 19:13
Quote:
Originally posted by juveli
Ok, this is a bit off-topic, but... Skilless , why you use a scope in your stealth pistol instead of laser sight? If I remember correctly, laser gives a same accuracy bonus as scope and you don't have to waste precious seconds for zooming, not to mention the small perception area with zoom on... With 3rd level skills (Advanced) in Weapon - Pistol and 3 upgrades to the Targeting aug, you can kill any human (non-mech/nano-enhanced) with a single shot. I haven't tried this with a MiB/WiB yet, so when I run across one, I'll let you know.
I've set my zoom/scope key to activate the Targeting and Recirc augs at the same time, and for some reason, it now kills them with a single headshot. I don't know how many accuracy mods I have on the SP, but its Base Accuracy is 92% and its distance of accuracy is 195'. I added the laser mod to it too, but I haven't used it in conjunction with the scope yet to see if it makes any difference. I think that the Targeting aug already makes my shots as accurate as they're going to get, and that seems to make all the difference, because if I turn off the Targeting, it still takes two shots.
So, it is now a "one shot, one kill" type of weapon, and its been so long since I used the sniper rifle, that I can't even remember the last time I used it. I'm maxed out on 30.06 ammo too. One place where it was especially nasty was the Superfreighter. There are three MJ12 on the pier and a number of sailors/FEMA on the ship. From the little grate you first come out on, I was able to take out all three of the MJ12 (farthest one must have been 150 yards, at the end of the pier) and one of the FEMA guards in about 2 seconds. Pffit....Pffit.....Pffit....Pffit. Four bullets, four kills, and none of them had enough time to react to me even being there. The more I play with this thing, the more I love it. I'm going to start playing with just the baton, prod and SP and see how far that gets me (playing lethal, of course).
There is actually one very good reason why I use the scope instead of the laser. The scope is available from the first mission (Sam Carter gives you your first SP, and there are two scope mods on first mission) and the laser doesn't come along until........I don't remember when, but I think its the Hell's Kitchen mission (MJ12 weapon cache?).
Also, even though the laser seems to be almost automatic with regards to hitting things, the scope provides magnification, which means I can actually see/find what I want to aim at. I mean, I might have my crosshairs turn red or white for just a second on something that is 100+ yards away, but I can't necessarily "see" where to aim for, or if there is anything in the vicinity that I could "hit", like a gas grenade or a barrel, or another guard. Mostly, I only use the scope when I want to take a "measured" shot, one where I know what my target is, and that I want to be accurate on. I don't mind the reduced FOV, because I'm concentrating on that thing in the distance anyway.
Basically, I just like seeing my crosshairs over their head. I have the laser mod added to the SP now, so maybe I'll do some testing with the scope vs. laser and see which one is more effective/lethal, with and without the Targeting aug.
Skilless on 31/10/2002 at 19:14
Update: I did some more testing. This time I was fighting the Chinese military types on the superfreighter. Turns out that the laser is no more accurate for me than an unscoped SP.
Targets:
1. Chinese military from approx. 10 feet
2. Chinese military from approx. 60 feet
Stealth Pistol Tested - (Weapon Skill - Pistol level 3, 3 accuracy mods (92% base accuracy), 3 distance mods (195' accuracy distance), laser mod, scope mod, 5 clip mods (15 rounds per clip) Targeting aug level 4)
1. Scope only: surprised target from behind. Killed with 1 headshot, and 1 chest shot.
2. Laser only: surprised target from behind. Killed with 2 shots (aiming for head) on best try
3. Targeting aug: surprised target from behind. Killed with 2 shots (aiming for head) on best try
4. Scope + Targeting aug: surprised target from behind. Killed with one shot to head.
5. Scope + Targeting aug: target aware of my location and returning fire. Killed with one shot to front of head.
6. Laser + Targeting aug: surprised target from behind. Killed with two shots to head (according to small camera of Targeting aug) on best try.
7. Laser + Targeting aug: target aware of my location and returning fire. Killed with three shots to front of head (according to small camera of Targeting aug) and body on best try.
8. Scope + Laser + Targeting aug: surprised target from behind. Killed with one shot to head.
9. Scope + Laser + Targeting aug: target aware of my location and returning fire. Killed with one shot to front of head.
Other than tests 4 & 5, the best results came from the #1 target, and the #2 target always required in excess of 4 rounds (at best). Scope + Targeting aug with both targets resulted in kills with one shot. I extended my range to an estimated 100 yards (300 feet) and still achieved the same one shot/kill results with the scope + aug combination. Although not tested at the same time, I've achieved one shot kills with the scope + aug from an estimated 150+ yards (450 feet), even though this is beyond the stated maximum distance of the 10mm round.
This indicates to me that either the Targeting aug lends addition damage in and of itself or, that the increased accuracy (in excess of 100%?) adds to the locational damage. The weenie.com site shows that as weapon skill level increases, the damage and accuracy increase as well. The additional damage seems to correlate to a 2:1 with the accuracy level over 100%. For example, at level 1, the accuracy is 105% while the damage is 110%, and at level 4, the accuracy is 125% while the damage is 150%. If accuracy over 100% does lead to additional damage, then the scope must increase accuracy much more so, and thus damage, than the laser. Not to mention that the scope is more accurate than the laser at long distances, simply because the locational aim is better by default.
Perhaps the combination of the scope and the Targeting aug bring the accuracy closer to the 200% range, and hence the damage might be increased to 300%. Base damage of a 10mm round from the SP is 10 pts, so 30 pts of damage would be the amount done if the accuracy/damage relationship is true. As you can see from my final 2 tests, I was unable to determine if the Scope + Laser + Targeting aug accuracy/damage was cumlative, since the scope + aug already kills with one shot. I may have to conduct two more tests with just the scope and laser (sans targeting aug) to determine if the laser's accuracy is actually cumlative or not.
Skilless on 31/10/2002 at 19:24
Quote:
Originally posted by juveli
Are you aware of the bug related to weapons with both laser & scope attached at the same time?
Anyway, since you like to drop the enemies from a distance, I agree that scope suits you better.Thank you for bringing this to my attention juveli! This is very interesting and I was not aware of that bug.
I'll need to replay some of the game in order to test this new (to me) development, or I guess I could enable cheats and spawn the necessary equipment.
The only reason I can think of to not use the laser sight is that very long shots would be difficult to aim properly with the target being so small, I guess that would be a good time to whip out the SR. If waiting for the crosshairs/reticle to shrink is removed while retaining the same accuracy, then the laser is indeen superior to the scope! One of the few complaints I have about the scope mod is that the reduced FOV makes fighting multiple targets at close range extremely dicey. Being able to instantly change targets at close range and get the same benefits for the scope + targeting aug would be a huge benefit. And, this would make an ideal combination with the SR.
But, I wonder......does the SR lose any accuracy bonuses for having the laser mod? Is the scope of the SR considered to be the same as the scope mod, or is it different?
BTW, I finally found a distance limitation for the SP. From the roof of the building where you first land in Paris, I was unable to snipe the MJ12 Commandos patrolling in the courtyard in front of building #14 and at the metro entrance with the SP. The sniper rifle had no such problems.
Also, I've made certain that accuracy does effect damage with two tests.
1. I crept up behind a WiB and prodded her in the back of the head under two circumstances; with the reticle completely collapsed and with it just short of the most minimal. With the reticle completely collapsed, she became unconscious. Anything else results in her being "frozen".
2. Shooting a military bot with the GEP gun (untrained skill level in Heavy Weapons). Both shots with the Targeting aug on level 4. If I wait until the reticle reaches minimum, the bot is destroyed, regardless of location. If I shoot as soon as I get a "lock" or anything short of the most minimal reticle, the bot is left badly damaged but still standing.
This indicates to me that damage is indeed effected by accuracy.
PowerCrazy on 4/11/2002 at 18:12
I'm glad people are finally figureing this out. I've been saying this since day 3. That was when i ifnally got the targetting mod. It increases damage. It ups the damage of the Dragon Tooth/Gep gun to 350. Also ups the damage of the sniper rifle to 42. thats after master in rifles. Also decreses time for lockon. When fully locked more damage is done to the target. And if i played lethally i would just use the submachine gun. But since i'm a non-lethal, I use the X-Bow, and baton, prod. Thats it. If you want to go lethal just use the assault shot gun/Sniper rifle/Dragon Tooth/GEP White Phosphorous
Come to think of it White Phosphorous is the best weapon to use. It is great. Best of both worlds. works on everyone... unless they are invinceble...
Skilless on 7/11/2002 at 23:17
I don't think that it ups damage directly, but that the accuracy increase over 100% leads to increased damage. So, if you had a base accuracy of 50% with a weapon, and the Targeting mod added 25%, you wouldn't see any benefit except with the accuracy. However, I think that if you had a 110% accuracy, then the additional 25% of the Targeting mod would contribute 50% more damage, making your total damage 170% of normal. I also think that the additional damage of making a headshot (locational damage), is cumulative with the accuracy damage, so that if a headshot increases damage by 2x, then the total damage increases to 240% (!).
This is all speculative though....
D'Juhn Keep on 10/11/2002 at 03:50
Sorry, I do not and never will like that puny excuse for a weapon ;)
Dragonclaw on 10/11/2002 at 10:31
Quote:
Originally posted by D'Juhn Keep ...that puny excuse for a weaponWhat?!? You mean it's not a stapler?
Skilless on 12/11/2002 at 14:10
My whole point was, I originally thought of the SP as a POS, but after working with it for awhile, I learned that if you play lethal, that it is an excellent silent sniping weapon early in the game before you get the silencer mod for the SR. One shot kills from a distance are nice when you're just wasting 10mm ammo.
What was funny was me replaying the game again this weekend and on the first mission I whipped out the SR and fired it. I had headphones on and you should have seen me jump when the SR let out that unsilenced *crack*.... /laughing at myself ;)
