Stealth: BRAVO! - TTLG Forums

Kaleid on 2/4/2006 at 17:30

Quote Posted by Uncia

Thief had a great sound propagation engine, but the AI audio detection was less than perfect. Look, I'm in a factory filled with noisy machines and people walking around, yet guards instantly not only hear my footsteps over the din, but also know they're mine.

Gotta agree there. It was on many peoples list for things to fix for thief 3 (including mine) but sadly we didn't get it.

Teh-Builder on 2/4/2006 at 17:52

Once you get your sneak up fairly high, you can just run around the darker dungeons bumping into monsters and whatnot to get by them.

Kaleid on 2/4/2006 at 17:57

Got the sneak level at max and certainly can't do that. Just tried without boots/shoes and had the same problem. Oh well...

RarRar on 2/4/2006 at 20:14

Quote Posted by Fig455

*sigh* Come on man. It wasn't perfect. Quit all that.

But I do think it was perfect, for a game like Oblivion. I do not expect nor want Thief-style stealth in a game like this. Anyway, this is an RPG and stealth has to be tied to skill so you're automatically not going to have the same experience as playing Garrett in Thief, who was a master of the art from the beginning of the game to the end. In Morrowind stealth was tied exclusively to skill and it sure was boring and useless. In Oblivion they teased apart the stealth system into different elements only one of them being skill. No, I don't want to be totally invisible in shadows, always, regardless of my skill. No, I do not need Thief type devices and gimmicks. Garrett had his water arrows, in Oblivion I have 6X sneak damage! A fair enough trade, especially for a game where you do kill a fair amount of things (I was never a ghosting type player in Thief and I certainly don't care to be one in Oblivion). I sure wish Garrett could have worn something other than those damn tap shoes. Really, would a pair of fuzzy slippers a la NOLF have been too much to ask? In Oblivion if I want to be really stealthy then I take off my boots! How revolutionary!

I do think the system is perfect. It's on par with Deus Ex stealth and NOLF stealth, both excellent excellent implementations, and also both radically different than Thief stealth.

And here is the IMPORTANT thing. I can't stress this enough. The designers didn't just throw a bunch of stealth "powers" and equipment at you, then forget about it and go back to building their game. They then crafted their "encounters," i.e., the dungeons, people's houses, even the wilderness, to support their vision of stealth. Like I said, enemies don't just stand there, they walk around, turn their backs on you, give you verbal feedback if they're close to detecting you. The dungeons have nooks, crannies and lighting. You usually come across monsters and bandits alone--perfect for a sneak attack--or when they're together they'll often separate after a little while. That must be pretty difficult keeping stealth always in the picture in addition to everything else they have to do when designing an encounter. Special "powers" and equipment are just a small part of the stealth picture. In my opinion, the scenarios and locations are like 80% of it.

I'd love to see a more detailed stealth designer diary on all of this someday (hint, hint).

Now I will throw you a bone and complain a bit, since I *do* like to complain--can't seem to help myself. While I think *stealth* in Oblivion is perfection I can't say the same for *thieving*. I've given up on thieving, at least for now. I can't seem to figure out the rules. When can you steal, how, what can you steal, without getting caught or arrested by guards every time you try and lay down for a nap. Maybe thieving is fabulous too, I don't know, but I've given up trying to figure it out for now. Also it could be just that at my level, 11, there just isn't enough good stuff around to steal to make it worth my while.

Love the lockpicking too, BTW, though I *can* understand why some people hate it.

Teh-Builder on 2/4/2006 at 20:19

But, the great part of using sneak is that you can actually feel you're getting better at it, as you gain rank in it. In the begining, sneaking up to people to backstab them was impossible, and the best i could do was get a shot at them from the shadows.

RarRar on 2/4/2006 at 20:34

Quote Posted by Teh-Builder

But, the great part of using sneak is that you can actually feel you're getting better at it

Yeah, I finally don't have to take off my armor boots anymore. And a good thing too. Peuw, the enemies could *smell* me coming, with my stinky stocking feet and all.

Uncia on 2/4/2006 at 20:54

Quote Posted by RarRar

I can't seem to figure out the rules. When can you steal, how, what can you steal, without getting caught or arrested by guards every time you try and lay down for a nap. Maybe thieving is fabulous too, I don't know, but I've given up trying to figure it out for now. Also it could be just that at my level, 11, there just isn't enough good stuff around to steal to make it worth my while.

If the hand is red you're not allowed to pick up [put it into your inventory or even move it with Z]. If it's not then you're free to take it / loot the corpse / chest.
You can steal anything, as long as nobody sees you. Just go into sneak mode, if you're not seen then taking is not a problem. You can abuse this by running around the corner, then lockpicking that shop door before the shopkeeper has the time to follow you around to check on you. Not that there's ever anything worth while in basements (best idea ever to prevent Morrowind-style room clearing. Just make pointless items worthless), unless you're an alchemist. Which you should be.

Now, pickpocketing is a different matter. Sure, you mustn't be seen, but weight also comes into question there. The heavier the item the harder it is to steal unnoticed; so theoretically you could yank that armour off the soldier, but practically you'll likely be reloading for hours until the roll of the dice grants you that. Gold, keys, small items however? Quite doable. At level 18 I can generally steal gold and keys without being detected, while smaller items need some luck manipulation with F5/F9.

NeoPendragon on 2/4/2006 at 22:09

I prefer to [SPOILER]plant poison apples into people's inventory[/SPOILER] with pickpocket. :ebil:

RarRar on 2/4/2006 at 22:15

Quote Posted by Uncia

If the hand is red you're not allowed to pick up [put it into your inventory or even move it with Z]. If it's not then you're free to take it / loot the corpse / chest.

I know about the red hand. When you're stealing you always have the red hand. I've been arrested twice and both times I have no idea what it was I did. They take me in and confiscate all of my stolen goods. The bounty on my info screen said 0 both times though the fine I paid was 1 gp. How can I get arrested if my bounty is at 0?? So if you lockpick a store at night, nobody sees you, you grab some stuff and leave, all unseen, then you will not get arrested? Or do you have to grab the red hand stuff only while in sneak mode, even if nobody sees you.

You know, thieving may not be the problem. There may have been something else I did that caused me to be arrested. I'm just not sure what and so I'm afraid to steal anything anymore or break in someplace. It could be the bounty, arresting, and guards are a problem with the game and an indirect result is that it discourages novice thieves who want to get into the business. Or maybe I'm just not doing it right. But anyway, like I said, right now there just doesn't seem to be anything worth stealing.

But I really really want to get a house. Soon! I have so much stuff. So anyway to increase my cash flow would be good.

NeoPendragon on 2/4/2006 at 22:31

There's plenty of stuff worth stealing. You just have to know where to look. Display cases. There's not a lot of stuff worth more than 50 in most places, but there's enough so that I can break into a shop and steal, say, 10 potions worth 35-50. Might still not be a lot, but I prefer it this way. It was too easy getting money in MW.