GMDX Dev on 18/6/2016 at 14:09
I've already seen that, it was a nice speech. Doesn't dispute anything said here though, if anything it reinforces it. They were made for one thing: money. The games were made intentionally dumb(er) than the LG standard for both platforms. the console was the focus because it had the largest audience and thereby optimizing potential sales. If PC had the larger audience it instead would have been the focus, but still dumbed down. Money was the goal. Money that they weren't receiving from their other uncompromising games.
Nonetheless they just couldn't catch a break. There were less dumb/streamlined games on the Xbox that smashed Invisible War and Deadly Shadow's sales, such as Morrowind, which was almost identical to the PC version (vanilla). It wasn't until Bioshock when someone managed to translate the Immersive Sim into a cash cow.
Thirith on 18/6/2016 at 14:12
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
I think Thief is a well designed game despite being less broad in scope.
For me it's very much a well designed game
because it is less broad in scope.
Deus Ex, while I like it a lot, does less for me than the much more focused
Thief, and the same's true for
System Shock 2. And
Ultima Underworld (neither the first nor the second) are anywhere near my list of favourite games. They're undoubtedly good, but because of their connection to
Ultima I always ended up thinking I'd rather be playing
Ultima VII or
Serpent Isle.
twisty on 18/6/2016 at 14:16
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
Through the Looking Glass I see my fanbase being the home of dedicated consumers of overly-commercialized braindead AAA, and lets play enthusiasts.
Are you implying that you have a fan base?
Starker on 18/6/2016 at 14:23
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
There were less dumb/streamlined games on the Xbox that smashed Invisible War and Deadly Shadow's sales, such as Morrowind, which was almost identical to the PC version (vanilla).
Things like the size of the levels were most certainly due to console limitations (such as the the small RAM of the Xbox). Like he said, they developed for console and PC was an afterthought, whereas Morrowind started as a PC game and a console version was developed separately.
GMDX Dev on 18/6/2016 at 14:48
Quote Posted by Thirith
Deus Ex, while I like it a lot, does less for me than the much more focused Thief,
I wouldn't say Thief is much more focused, actually. Or rather it's not notably more tight or cohesive in stealth gameplay as a result of that focus. Thief doesn't have much that sets it apart from Deus Ex's stealth gameplay. At most it's a little bit more polished. I'm struggling to think of anything that Thief has in core systems or mechanics that Deus Ex doesn't, also with the same level of attention to detail. Deus Ex has all the things Thief is hailed for in that regard: the light levels influencing visibility, the different floor textures producing variable noise, the ability to come up with creative solutions and so on.
Quote Posted by Twisty
Are you implying that you have a fan base?
I wasn't, though I do have one, albeit small. Thief has a large fanbase and Ultima Underworld has a small one, so what's your point? It's not indicative of what you think it is (quality), but I already know you have a sheepish mentality and follow the crowd rather than using your own brain to analyze and deduce.
Quote Posted by Starker
Things like the size of the levels were most certainly due to console limitations (such as the the small RAM of the Xbox).
They were, though the story of the botched engine and the focus on high-end graphics also played a role. LG never had that focus. As far as 2002 went there were few 3D games that looked better than IW. Nonetheless it was what it was because they wanted money. It was a very disappointing game, though not exactly bad.
Dev_Anj on 18/6/2016 at 15:01
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
Deus Ex has all the things Thief is hailed for in that regard: the light levels influencing visibility, the different floor textures producing variable noise, the ability to come up with creative solutions and so on.
The big deal breaker is that Thief was one of the first games to focus on sneaking using light and sound mechanics, so it makes light and dark zones very clear cut while still having areas with varied levels of lighting to provide some ambiguity in the gameplay. The sound design was also great, in fact it's one of the few games where a lot of the trial and error of stealth is eliminated by using the sound of footsteps and ambient sounds to hint the player towards any potential dangers they can run into while not giving out the precise positions unless they pay attention.
Deus Ex on the other theoretically has a light and sound system but the lighting in Deus Ex is often very inconsistent in how it hides you and it's not as sharp as the Dark Engine's lighting either from a visual perspective, which makes using it for sneaking harder, sometimes outright impractical. There are already many jokes made about Deus Ex's atrocious sound design, so let's not get into that here. Furthermore, Deus Ex simplifies the inherent stealth mechanics because crouching is always silent no matter what surface you're own. Deus Ex also really doesn't have much variety in effective floor sounds and lacks subtle ways of manipulating the environment that Thief features, like mossing over marbled areas to muffle your footsteps, which works both in and against your favour. The only environmental manipulation that Deus Ex featured which was practical stealth wise was moving crates and throwing stuff/firing crossbow darts into walls, which often made the stealth a big joke.
PigLick on 18/6/2016 at 15:05
Quote Posted by Thirith
And
Ultima Underworld (neither the first nor the second) are anywhere near my list of favourite games. ].
you are dead to me, dead.
GMDX Dev on 18/6/2016 at 15:10
Thief's sound design trumps Deus Ex's no question. I'm not sure where you are getting that Deus Ex "theoretically has a light and sound system but the lighting in Deus Ex is often very inconsistent in how it hides you". It does have those things, darkness just doesn't make you essentially invisible as it does in Thief. I'd say you're correct on your other observations though.
heywood on 18/6/2016 at 15:15
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
That those other ventures were ignored despite being more progressive than Thief is the problem, not because Looking Glass didn't go to extreme lengths to milk Thief.
You mean stuff like Star Trek: Voyager, Terra Nova, British Open Golf, and N64 ports? From what I read, those are the games that sunk Looking Glass into debt. They made money on Underworld, System Shock, and Thief.
Quote:
Correction: Streamlined for money they desperately needed for growth due to being ignored by the PC market for a decade. If either were streamlined for consoles, the console version would have been streamlined and the PC version would not have.
What? You expect them to develop separate games for the PC and consoles? The whole point was to make one game that could work on both PCs and leading consoles because that was the only way to sell enough copies to cover the ballooning development costs.
Quote:
They streamlined the game because that was generally the demand, on both PC and consoles. Otherwise Doom and Half Life wouldn't have been wildly successful while Deus Ex and System Shock 2 moderately successful or put the company in the red respectively. Thief: DS and Invisible War sold more than their predecessors, though I don't put that down to the streamlining because they weren't very enjoyable despite the fact they were streamlined.
Deadly Shadows and Invisible War did not sell more than the predecessors.
Starker on 18/6/2016 at 15:25
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
I'm not sure where you are getting that Deus Ex "theoretically has a light and sound system but the lighting in Deus Ex is often very inconsistent in how it hides you".
Thief has a light gem that gives you instant feedback on how your visibility changes based on the lighting, your stance, moving speed and the equipment you are using. So you can instantly get a feel of just how visible you are.
