S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2 - TTLG Forums

Bakerman on 20/7/2011 at 08:52

Quote Posted by Ostriig

I really think that the physical, "geographical" setting of the game brings with it some inherent limitations because the fiction of the game is built with it as a central component.

Hypothetical: they take a leaf from Roadside Picnic and visit another Zone somewhere else in the world. In the book there were multiple zones; in the game they've somewhat dug themselves a hole by making Chernobyl the only zone, but imagine if they could come up with a justification for a new setting. Say somewhere in Asia (I'm not thinking of the Japan quakes at all when I say that - I just thought it might be a nice change from all European faces :p, and I'd really like to see GSC do a rural Asian environment, given how well they pulled off Chernobyl and surrounds). Does that take away from the game's essence?

I agree when you say the setting is a massive part of what makes those games special, and the Zone is kind of, at risk of sounding pretentious, a character in its own right. And as silly as it sounds, I'm not all that used to hearing Russian accents in games, especially friendly ones. I guess Chernobyl being a semi-local setting for GSC has something to do with why the game has such quality and fidelity of environment. But I'd really just like to see them try something a bit out of the box.

Quote Posted by Ostriig

I feel it makes an implicit statement about what the essence of videogames is made of - not fiction (the setting, the characters, the events) but gameplay and overarching general artistic trend.

I wanted to pick this up, though it's not entirely relevant. I've always seen it kind of the other way - I wonder why BioShock infinite is called BioShock at all, given that it's got really nothing to do with the first games, except, as you say, gameplay and art direction (and possibly the sort of thematic content it deals with). I guess I take a more... traditional? approach to determining what a sequel to a story should entail - another story related to that story. The reverse, to me, seems like pitching a sequel to a black-and-white film in which none of the content is remotely related at all, except the new film is also in black-and-white.

From (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioshock_Infinite#Development) Wikipedia:

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Though BioShock Infinite shares the same name with the other two games, Levine has stated that this is a new direction, and was coy to answer if they shared the same universe. Levine referred to the term BioShock not as a specific location or setting, but a concept conjoined by two ideas: the exploration of a fantastical setting, and the use of a large number of tools and abilities in creative manners to survive.

He seems to liken BioShock to a genre, which I don't think is helpful... it's similar in a way to the Final Fantasy pattern of games - they're JRPGs featuring pre-teens with spiky hair, without any sort of cohesive setting, but they all have a similar feel and gameplay. (I should disclaim that I've never played a Final Fantasy game, so if I've put my foot in it, or offended any fans of FF, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make a point about franchises :p.)

To bring this back to the subject somewhat: could STALKER become something like that? Would it actually be beneficial? Regardless of whether they actually would do it.

dexterward on 20/7/2011 at 10:42

Quote Posted by Bakerman

I should disclaim that I've never played a Final Fantasy game, so if I've put my foot in it, or offended any fans of FF, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make a point about franchises :p

No offense taken ;) It`s a pretty good example actually, but I`d risk saying quite special too - hard to put finger on, but somehow it`s less about mullah, more about the general vibe. COD could be another example, or indeed Bioshock - although insistence on keeping the same name in these franchises is clearly all about $$$ (so Levine can shut up about his "concept" - Bioshock: New Vegas?, etc)

But I don`t mind, as long as the games are good. I`m only halfway through first STALKER but understand they stuck with more less the same area throughout the sequels. Ok...perhaps it`s time the Zone expanded & covered some totally new area. Nothing wrong with that. Jump to some other country? Hmmm...risky, I think they know Eastern Europe best and should stick to it. (Though if they (http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/gunkanjima-the-japanese-island-time-forgot/10552) did something like that I`d approve...)

Ostriig on 20/7/2011 at 22:32

Quote Posted by Koki

Ironically, all these are scripted events that won't happen unless you are in proximity.

A question which is easily answered by the fact that you never find any bodies at the place of supposed recent battle. Nothing in STALKER games happens without player being near it.

Fair enough, I seem to remember such events firing over great distances at times, but maybe those were just scripts misfiring or maybe indeed I'm misremembering. I don't recall finding bodies nor their pointed absence, I'll take your word for it. At any rate, if that's the case and STALKER handles AI like most other action games then I guess it's not a concern for streaming a persistent cell-based map.

Quote Posted by Bakerman

Hypothetical: they take a leaf from Roadside Picnic and visit another Zone somewhere else in the world. [...] Does that take away from the game's essence?

I don't think it does, but I may well be in a minority. You called the Zone almost a character in its own right, and I don't think that's at all pretentious, it's spot on. I feel quite strongly that swapping out this character would be fine, recommendable even for the sake of restoring novelty to the series, but I can definitely imagine fans for whom this intensely Eastern European character that is STALKER's setting would be part of the game's inalienable "essence". I'd disagree with them, for the most part, but I can definitely see where they'd be coming from.

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Well, this kinda goes into the ludology vs. narratology debate that's been raging in game studies for a long time now, academics have been pissing on each other with glee over this subject. For my part narrative is hugely important, I think plot, setting, characters and all associated contexts can matter immensely, and I generally orient myself towards titles that provide me with an ample story to delve in. But if you want to boil it down to one or the other, I fall on the ludologist side of the barricade - I believe that gameplay's where it's ultimately at. Just to explain that with a bit of context, I feel that while STALKER's aesthetic assets and its narrative underpinnings play an important role in building its experience, its core factor lies in the structuring of its gameplay, brutal, dynamic and unpredictable.

But yes, you're right, we can probably do without going into a full-scale ludology/narratology argument in here. I'd be wary of applying film notions of genre and therefore, to some extent, sequel directly in either case, though, very different beasts and all that. And just as a minor note, while I understand contention on whether Infinityshock would class as a sequel to Bioshock (or whether that term is applicable to the Final Fantasy series), I don't think we can say Irrational are trying to define it as a game genre.

Quote:

To bring this back to the subject somewhat: could STALKER become something like that? Would it actually be beneficial? Regardless of whether they actually would do it.

Yeah, I think it could and I think it would stand to benefit too, at least from an artistic point of view. But whether they'd be able to pull it off as well as they managed to do the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone I don't know. Like you said, was their likely familiarity with abandoned Communist-era industrial complexes pivotal in catching the flavour of the area or not? At the end of the day, after three games around Chernobyl, a breath of fresh air might be a nice effort. Hypothetically, of course.

faetal on 21/7/2011 at 10:19

It would be good to have vehicles in S2, but I wouldn't want to miss out on the hiking. As tedious as re-treading familiar territory is, the A-life meant that the same route would differ a fair amount.

Maybe if using vehicles came with some downside, such as attracting the attention of NPCs and mutants within a radius of the car noise or something...

As far how to update to environment without a complete re-write, I'd say that the answer lies in the subtlety. With improved skins, meshes, animations and AI, the same creatures could seem vastly different in how they react to the world, the environment and the player. What made Stalker great was how familiar areas would always have something different going on. Wild Territory in SoC is a great example of this, really living up to its name (particularly with the Complete mod). A few extra mutants, perhaps some procedural variation in the dimensions, colours and proportions, maybe even a few unique variants (there are the unique weapons, named NPCs why not unique mutants?) and a bunch of new animations etc. as mentioned above and voila - a tonne of additional variation in the game which wasn't there before. Anomalies likewise. They already dealt with unique anomalies in CoP, and moving anomalies too. Perhaps some way to interact with anomalies rather than just avoidance and artefact gathering? Throw x item into y anomaly and get z? They can be clever, not alter the world too much and still end up with a completely new experience if they do it right.

Just so long as it doesn't end up too "gamey". CoP got dangerously close to breaking immersion with some of the weapon add-ons (though they were pretty cool, I'd have preferred if they were game world items (found and/or bought - some generic, some weapon specific, some unique) rather than just menu choices).

dexterward on 21/7/2011 at 11:25

Quote Posted by faetal

Just so long as it doesn't end up too "gamey".

It`s actually the only thing I`m really worried about. For all they say about how PC is king, the console lure proved irresistible to many a dev before. I really don`t want to see Artifact Hoarder Achievement Unlocked! or some such devices...I want to "live" there goddamit, without being dragged back to real world.

Been playing Chernobyl on/off for about 8 months now and only just cleared Lab X18. In no rush anywhere...game of this calibre might never happen again.

faetal on 21/7/2011 at 11:36

Agree completely. There were achievements in CoP no?
CoP was great and added some really good things, but it was nowhere near as immersive as SoC. For a while, I was all torn about which was my all time favourite game on PC (Deus Ex? SS2?), but on my last play through with the 2009 Complete mod, Stalker just had to top the list. Like you say - you are IN the zone. I think RPG elements may ruin it. For me, the character progression was a combination of better equipment and me becoming more savvy in certain situations. My character become stronger because now I could look down a scope and I now had better "3 round burst from chest to face" reflexes. The learning curve may have put a lot of people off, but once at Rostok, I felt like I'd advanced far more so than in any RPG which gave me stat increases or perks.

Dia on 21/7/2011 at 12:54

Quote Posted by faetal

Seconded. Plus, you have a better chance at upping your mutant-killing quota while hiking. ;) Unless they do it like the Half Life2 dunebuggy thing.

Quote Posted by faetal

Maybe if using vehicles came with some downside, such as attracting the attention of NPCs and mutants within a radius of the car noise or something...

I'm liking this idea. Kind of like when you're placing the sensors in the anomaly sites and it turns out mutants are attracted to anomalies and you almost get your ass handed to you on silver platter .... more than once.

faetal on 21/7/2011 at 13:04

I think it could be quite realistic if implemented properly. You know the background, randomised mutant howl/screech noises in the other games? They could give a loud, blood-curdling pitch change if your car backfires or you drive too close to a pack with nothing to occlude the engine noise. Some kind of "oh fuck" moment which puts you in worse danger than usual. Maybe vehicle noise makes mutants more aggressive towards you as well, so a pesky band of fleshes suddenly becomes bent on avenging every last pork based product in history.

Something which basically has you weighing up 'do I use the car, or hike?' rather than the presence of cars essentially killing the walking absence. It should be pertinent to the local fauna too - I can imagine a designer fucking it up by having a [use car = spawn mob + attack car] mechanic.

Obviously, this is just me day-dreaming.

Dia on 21/7/2011 at 13:08

I like your dreams. Too bad GSC doesn't have a suggestions box.

faetal on 21/7/2011 at 13:18

Also, car degradation can effect how often and how loud the backfires are. If only someone made a magic box which turned thoughts into mods.

(EDIT: I realise now that I am getting dangerously close to sounding like this parody: (https://twitter.com/#!/petermolydeux) )