Kefren on 9/11/2006 at 19:40
Earlier today I completed SS2 for the first time in ages. In fact, in between my last SS2 playthough and this one, I played my first ever game of SS1 (all the way through).
[SPOILER] I always liked the graphics in the SS2 endgame, i.e. the coloured lines combined with the primitive architecture from SS1 which I realised were a nod to the game's origins, but I had never realised the layout of that section was almost identical to the start of SS1! It had an extra resonance this time because I have now played SS1, and it brought a grin to my face - so it shows it is definitely worth starting to play SS1, even if you never complete it.[/SPOILER]
Anyway, it made me wish I could play SS1 in the SS2 engine, because it ran so smoothly, with good controls and it looked so nice as 1024x768. In the past I had dreamed of a complete conversion, so that it was exactly SS1 but with better graphics (e.g. 3D enemies) and more user-friendly controls. However from previous discussions on this board it seems that that is a huge task, because the interfaces are so different (e.g. the implementation of abilities in the cyber-rig; cyberspace). It would need to get all that right, and therefore replace SS1 without losing any features, for it to satisfy 99% of fans - and it is just such a huge amount of work (intellectual property issues aside).
However, what if the task was simplified? My idea is for an alternative SS1. Shodan takes over in exactly the same way; but instead of the Hacker waking and dealing with it, the UNN sends in one of their agents (marine, OSA, or navy), or has them on board already. Suddenly there is no need to change any of the interface and implants and skills - the SS2 interface could pretty much stay as it is, because it would be a different character from the Hacker, so no need for the ability to see out of the back of your head etc. [Obviously there would be slight discrepancies in the timeline re: versions of cyber-rigs etc. And some SS2 annelid weapons and implants might be best left out of the game completely.]
Anyway, the task is then simplified a lot. A lot of the work is done already. Use the SS1 wall textures and level layouts. The logs and music and videos are already done.
Adapt a few things that could cause trouble. E.g. c-space jacks - instead going INTO cyberspace a la SS1, the UNN operative wouldn't have that ability, so would interact with it in a different way, using the normal hacking interface (successful hack = open the related door, or get a keycard, or whatever). Energy charge terminals would work the same. Lifts could work the same. Med-beds could work the same (either including the keys already, or making you find them to unlock the bed).
Item placement would be different, since the SS2 items would be used instead, but in many cases there could be rough equivalents.
The main advantage over SS1 (on top of the smoothness and resolution) would be the incorporation of 3D enemies. The enemies in SS1 were
inventive, but their 2D depictions (although good for the time) were so blurry that I couldn't really tell what I was fighting. They lost some of the impact they would have if they were updated with 3D models - then we could really feel fear when facing the big thumping robots, torn flesh cyborgs, tumourous warped virus infected mutants and so on.
The end result would be like an alternative mission. A great 'what if?' scenario. E.g. what if I had PSI powers in SS1?
It would be great to boot into SS2 and have the choice of SS2 (with the various graphical mods I use); other people's missions; and an SS2 version of SS1. Especially because I tried SS2 on XP for the first time, and it ran perfectly with no need to do anything (the only bug was that occasionally an enemy became 'transparent' to damage - they could harm me, but my shots passed right through them. I discovered that if you save the game and reload immediately it fixes it, so no real hardship there - only happened three times I think).
Of course, once that is done and people can play it, and there is something solid to work on, then later someone could mod THAT. So someone could alter SS2 to give more SS1-equivalent weapons; add cyberspace as in SS1 (under-water levels to allow free movement?); add SS1 powerups; and upgrade the wall textures.
And then of course I wake up and realise no-one has the time to do it anyway! But maybe one day - this altered version would be less work (though still a lot...).
Hollowtip on 9/11/2006 at 21:33
The UNN guys should be able to go into C-Space just like the hacker. The reason the hacker could was because of the neural interface he had. At the start of SS2, you just wake up from completing the operation to have one installed (basically the same version the hacker had).
Also, some of the areas in SS1 can't be reached without the jump boots or skates, which simply don't exist in SS2 and from my limited knowledge of scripting in the Dark engine, I doubt that you would be able to implement it. Then there is also the difference in how power is handled and your missing most of the SS1 grenades and weapons (I want my plasma gun! and I doubt that it would be hard if not impossible to implement those aswell).
Other than these points, there is no reason this couldn't really be done as far as I can see. IMHO, I recon the best thing would be a SS1 rewrite (which shouldn't be overly hard, after all, the original game was created by a handful of programmers, and with all the open source code and APIs out there, a lot of the work, e.g. physics/sound/core rendering engine, is already done).
(Note: I am currently attempting an engine rewrite currently, and should hopefully be rendering textured level geometry soon).
Nameless_Voice on 10/11/2006 at 01:17
For the most part, the technical side of things isn't the issue.
The reason CCP has stalled isn't because we can't do the tech, but because of the huge amount of DromEd work involved to get the actual levels furnished and working.
We had made fair progress on Medical, with the whole deck properly textured, but there's still a lot to do before we even have to start worrying about the technical side. The placement of weapons, items, enemies and other objects, mainly.
The creatures in particular are a nightmare, since no one has stepped forward to brave the horrors of the Dark Engine rigging system to build the models for them, let alone the fact that someone would probably have to trudge down the dark paths of the motion editor to create motions for them.
A lot of other objects also need to be built before they can be placed.
There are a few other issues as well, such as the fact that all the doors in System Shock 1 had no thickness what-so-ever, meaning that there generally isn't room to put in real 3D doors and doorways. Rearranging the entire levels to make space for doorways would be a nightmare (every single texture would have be re-aligned), and just the room on or the other side of the door breaks the texture flow...
We would need to have some sort of a fully completed test area before we can even think about getting the technical effects working. There's a proof of concept demo by me floating around somewhere, where I had a few of the base systems mostly working: the player's battery, including energy weapons and recharging, some of the hardware (speed bost, night vision and jumpjets, IIRC) and the security camera/node system.
But until there's something viable to use these effects in, I see no reason to complete them and get them fully working, since by the look of things they'll never be used anyway.
Kefren on 10/11/2006 at 09:15
Quote Posted by Hollowtip
The UNN guys should be able to go into C-Space just like the hacker. The reason the hacker could was because of the neural interface he had. At the start of SS2, you just wake up from completing the operation to have one installed (basically the same version the hacker had).
Agreed, but because that would mean changing the SS2 interface to do it that way (as opposed to using what is there, and just making a model that looks like a C-space jack but which the game sees as a security console or something), it would be something that would hold things up, and could be done later instead (if anyone wanted to do it). Perhaps it could be explained as in UNN Navy CAN go into C-space and do it that way, but it is seen as a hacker method; they prefer to use a backdoor shortcut a la SS2 (which is logical, since it is a quicker hacking method than spending three minutes floating around, unable to defend your body).
Quote Posted by Hollowtip
Also, some of the areas in SS1 can't be reached without the jump boots or skates
Those areas would just need a workaround for now - lower things to mantle, or glass bridges or something.
Quote Posted by Hollowtip
Then there is also the difference in how power is handled and your missing most of the SS1 grenades and weapons (I want my plasma gun!
As I mentioned, this version wouldn't have SS1 weapons or grenades at the start (but once it is finished and playable, people could mod it then to include them). Power would use the SS2 system.
Kefren on 10/11/2006 at 09:18
Quote Posted by Nameless_Voice
For the most part, the technical side of things isn't the issue.
The reason CCP has stalled isn't because we can't do the tech, but because of the huge amount of DromEd work involved to get the actual levels furnished and working.
[Sigh]. Oh well, 'twas but a dream within a dream.
I assume DROMED can't be made more user-friendly?
Bjossi on 10/11/2006 at 14:16
Why not use a better engine? Some engines like the Doom 3 engine have a good scripting ability so you could recreate the gameplay, feel and all those elements we love so much; with much more updated graphics. :)
But that of course means you need to have a copy of Doom 3 installed, are there perhaps good open-source engines out there?
Matthew on 10/11/2006 at 14:50
Because using a non-EA game engine is a good way to get them to jump in your shit.
cosmicnut on 10/11/2006 at 14:57
First off, I kinda found SS2's endgame a little lacking. I loved the walk through good old citadel staaaaatttionnnn. But I felt that there could have been more than just a few cyborg assains and a quick platform jump.
I liked the idea of actually defating SHODAN but, I don't know. It just seemed a little tacked on. I know you can either overpower or hack your way through but with the constant fire from the SHODANS, it always ends up a bit of a mess.
As for the remake. I think a Dark engine based remake is all we will end up with. As EA owns some of the copyrights. Any attempt will be blocked by legal action.
Bjossi on 10/11/2006 at 15:04
The game's level design had to gather quite a bit of pace to get it done in time, which explains why you felt that way in the final parts of it.
If you make a game from scratch on an open-source engine, EA don't have any legal rights to shut it down no matter how much you try to make it look like the original game. The content of the game is copyrighted, not your custom made content.
Vigil on 10/11/2006 at 15:26
...as long as you also do not use their title, story or likenesses, all of which are still copyright. This is why a lot of fan remakes take the tack of creating a world very similar but with everything suitably renamed.
