PigLick on 12/10/2011 at 05:47
cant you just be nice for once?
Briareos H on 12/10/2011 at 06:27
or better, gone.
Quote Posted by Keeper Deven
*Added dethtoll to your ignore list*
Ignore list is sort of a half-hearted answer though. There is no way to remove all traces of a particular poster, both because of quotes and because the forum software hides posts by ignored members inside convenient, tempting boxes rather than removing them altogether.
I know it's difficult not to rage after reading some of the things posted here but by telling someone you put them on ignore list, you're somehow fuelling the drama, acknowledging that you're not fully able to behave in a detached manner, publicising the whole matter (rather than, like, effectively ignoring someone by not replying) and making yourself open to later criticism.
That said, I fully agree with your views on gaming and the strong reaction to your negativity wasn't helpful. You gave amounts of exaggeration and borderline trolling to express a sincere opinion as early as your first post and seeing how fellow members do it all the time on other topics, it seemed only fair to let you do it without immediately inferring that you didn't get the game.
Thirith on 12/10/2011 at 06:50
I haven't played DX:HR yet, but for the record I honestly don't see why people are jumping down Keeper Deven's throat to the extent that they are. He wasn't trolling, he gave reasons why he was disappointed with the game, he acknowledged that this may have as much to do with his expectations as with the game. I'm finding it difficult to see the strong negative reactions - and I mainly mean yours, dethtoll - as anything other than a kneejerk reaction. Quite frankly, dethtoll, it sounds like you're off your meds or something.
Keeper Deven on 12/10/2011 at 07:39
Quote Posted by Briareos H
or better, gone.
Ignore list is sort of a half-hearted answer though. There is no way to remove all traces of a particular poster, both because of quotes and because the forum software hides posts by ignored members inside convenient, tempting boxes rather than removing them altogether.
I know it's difficult not to rage after reading some of the things posted here but by telling someone you put them on ignore list, you're somehow fuelling the drama, acknowledging that you're not fully able to behave in a detached manner, publicising the whole matter (rather than, like, effectively ignoring someone by not replying) and making yourself open to later criticism.
That said, I fully agree with your views on gaming and the strong reaction to your negativity wasn't helpful. You gave amounts of exaggeration and borderline trolling to express a sincere opinion as early as your first post and seeing how fellow members do it all the time on other topics, it seemed only fair to let you do it without immediately inferring that you didn't get the game.
I accept the rebuke, although I must emphasize that I wasn’t deliberately trying to stir up a shitstorm. And I may have lapsed into … ah … colourful metaphor, but I wasn’t exaggerating my reaction to the game, or what happened while I played it. At no point did I say that it’s a bad game; I just don’t think it’s one that deserves such vigorous defence, and I tried to explain why. Very ineptly, as it turned out.
Ignore lists and drama tend to be a part of the ‘culture’ of the gaming site where I usually post (there’s even a thread there titled ‘The Great List of [Redacted] Drama’), but that isn’t the way things are done here, and I respect that. I don’t like the idea of ignore lists anyway, but I really wanted to avoid another pointless, foul-mouthed exchange, which I suppose I could have also done by just buggering off. What can I say? :someoneontheinternetiswrong.jpg:
DDL on 12/10/2011 at 08:37
My personal guess would be that your original post gave the impression that people seemed to be viewing the game as "DX, only nicer looking!" or even "Better than the original!!!11" or even "I LOEV TEH COVAR SYSTEMS!!!3", when really the fact that it clearly failed to reach that bar has been discussed to death long ago, and mostly when people are positive about it, they're discussing it in terms of how much better it is than much of the dross that gets churned out now. When people are negative about it (and they are, all the time) it's in terms of how it could've been better. And it could've been so much better.
The fact nevertheless remains that it's better than much of the dross that gets churned out now, and this is a step in the right direction. A small step, perhaps, but then you're trying to convert new people who have been raised on GoW (god or gears, really: take your pick) and the like, because they buy a shitload of games. Us curmudgeonly oldsters are buying games, sure, but there's only so many of us.
heywood on 12/10/2011 at 08:45
Quote Posted by Keeper Deven
No, I'll play along and try to rationalize this. It could be that Eliza would block or spin the transmission. If so, at the end, why would Eliza, who's under Illuminati control, bend over for Jensen rather than Darrow, an actual member of the Illuminati, and the one who should know the Hyron project like the back of his hand? Of course! It's because no one besides the player can possibly save the world, and so Eliza will only put out for Jensen's augmented protagonist cock.
Although Eliza is the spokes-machine for an Illuminati-owned network, Eliza is semi-independent and not in on the Illuminati plot. And recall that Eliza expresses an interest in following Adam's progression, warns him about the ambush in Picus, helps him in the 2nd boss battle against that Illuminati merc Yelena, and gives him some intel. So it's actually somewhat logical that Eliza would look to Adam for direction on how to report the Panchea story considering it helped him previously, and because he was the one who saved the day, and it's programmed to spin the news. Also, the game makes it reasonably clear that Darrow is not a member of the Illuminati.
The thing is, I agree with several of your criticisms. It's just that you have a pretty bad hit/miss ratio.
EDIT: It just dawned on me that you might be a lot younger than I am and thus never experienced Eliza and maybe never heard of the program. If so, you missed possibly the best reference in the game. That may be why the character was more interesting for me and the ending made more sense.
Keeper Deven on 12/10/2011 at 11:24
Quote Posted by heywood
Although Eliza is the spokes-machine for an Illuminati-owned network, Eliza is semi-independent and not in on the Illuminati plot. And recall that Eliza expresses an interest in following Adam's progression, warns him about the ambush in Picus, helps him in the 2nd boss battle against that Illuminati merc Yelena, and gives him some intel. So it's actually somewhat logical that Eliza would look to Adam for direction on how to report the Panchea story considering it helped him previously, and because he was the one who saved the day, and it's programmed to spin the news. Also, the game makes it reasonably clear that Darrow is not a member of the Illuminati.
If Hugh Darrow isn't a member of the Illuminati, that makes even less sense, and just raises more questions. How did he configure a signal designed to activate a biochip built to Illuminati specifications? And how does Annoying Chinese Illuminati Wannabe manage to take control (albeit partially) of the Hyron project? It is because it can interface with anyone and she got there just before Jensen? How and when did that happen? Why is it even designed to interface with an augmented human—see the cutscene; it clearly is—when Darrow, the only one it should be controlled by, is 100% human?
Darrow says, ‘When you see it, maybe then you'll understand. The technology I created will not be the future either one of us desires.' If he's responsible for the entire project, if the Illuminati weren't the ones responsible for enslaving three women to a computer to broadcast a signal and successfully covering it all up, it's really hard to follow his reasoning:
I created the machine of evil; I don't want such things to happen (though I did it anyway just to prove a point); therefore the world should suffer. So it's essentially Earth vs the Mad Scientist but the Illuminati stand-in appears at the end for a boss battle because this is a Deus Ex game and they should be there. That works functionally as a plot, but there's even less conspiracy shenanigans than I thought.
As to Eliza, IIRC, she was held in check just by the presence of Yelena (‘She won't let me.'). If that's all it took, are the Illuminati really so incompetent that they couldn't remember to send someone back to the Picus HQ for the world's most powerful purveyor of dis/information all the time Jensen was at Detroit, Hengsha and Singapore? And they've been doing this for how many centuries now?
heywood on 12/10/2011 at 12:04
Quote Posted by Keeper Deven
That just raises more questions. If Hugh Darrow isn’t a member of the Illuminati, then how did he create a signal designed to activate a biochip built to Illuminati specifications? And how does Annoying Chinese Illuminati Wannabe manage to take control (albeit temporarily) of the Hyron project? It is because it can interface with anyone and she got there just before Jensen? How and when did that happen? Why is it even designed to interface with an augmented human when Darrow, the only one it should be controlled by, is 100% human?
Darrow gets access to the biochip through Megan, by exploiting her doubts about the Illuminati's intentions. That was hinted and then revealed right before the cutscene you hate. Darrow isn't supposed to control Hyron. And it's not a doomsday device. It's purpose is described in the game, starting back in Hengsha. You need the right augs to interface with it, and there's background info in eBooks. Also, Zhao doesn't take control of it. She tries but has some kind of compatibility problems. She wants to control Hyron because she wants to control the signal and fuck with Sarif augs only so TYM will have a monopoly. Whereas Jensen just needs to shut it down.
EDIT: Didn't see your edit. One more response, then I give up:
Quote Posted by Keeper Deven
As to Eliza, IIRC, she was held in check just by the presence of Yelena (‘She won’t let me.’). If that’s all it took, are the Illuminati really so incompetent that they couldn’t remember to send someone back to the Picus HQ for the world's most powerful purveyor of dis/information all the time Jensen was at Detroit, Hengsha and Singapore? And they’ve been doing this for how many centuries now?
It seemed obvious that "she won't let me" doesn't mean some kind of direct control but that Eliza isn't at liberty to have a discussion with Adam unless the Illuminati doesn't know about it. I think Eliza wants you to take out Yelena in part to cover its tracks, and so it's free to interact with Adam and influence/help him. Admittedly, if you picked up on the fact that Eliza is programmed to be a Rogerian psychotherapist then its interactions with Adam make more sense.
Keeper Deven on 12/10/2011 at 12:40
Quote Posted by heywood
Darrow gets access to the biochip through Megan, by exploiting her doubts about the Illuminati's intentions. That was hinted and then revealed right before the cutscene you hate. Darrow isn't supposed to control Hyron. And it's not a doomsday device. It's purpose is described in the game, starting back in Hengsha. You need the right augs to interface with it, and there's background info in eBooks. Also, Zhao doesn't take control of it. She tries but has some kind of compatibility problems. She wants to control Hyron because she wants to control the signal and fuck with Sarif augs only so TYM will have a monopoly. Whereas Jensen just needs to shut it down.
And now I give up. I'm done explaining things you should have picked up when playing. You're not the elitist gamer dethtoll accuses you of being. On the contrary, given your apparent attention/interest level I'm impressed you mashed enough buttons in the right sequence to get to the end of the game. Pay attention next time!
Right, of course, Darrow was working with TYM, not the Illuminati. The British voice in the first cutscene threw me off ('The world will not change overnight just because David Sarif wills it. Besides, we can do nothing until the biochip is ready.'), as did Darrow's interview with Eliza. At any rate, he was neck-deep in the conspiracy, and since he was already acquainted with Eliza, and she was, as you say, not under Illuminati control, he was in a much better position to reveal all to the world, without sending it to hell first. My original point still stands, I think.
Edit: Again with the frickin' doomsday device? Why are you fixated on that? I already told you three times that I wasn't being literal.
Keeper Deven on 12/10/2011 at 13:17
Quote Posted by heywood
It seemed obvious that "she won't let me" doesn't mean some kind of direct control but that Eliza isn't at liberty to have a discussion with Adam unless the Illuminati doesn't know about it. I think Eliza wants you to take out Yelena in part to cover its tracks, and so it's free to interact with Adam and influence/help him. Admittedly, if you picked up on the fact that Eliza is programmed to be a Rogerian psychotherapist then its interactions with Adam make more sense.
Ah, good point, I did not pick up on that (the Yelena thing). It's odd that the Illuminati would not want an AI of such power under their control, though. IIRC, Daedalus in DX was a rogue AI, but Eliza is confined to that sub-basement area. I would have thought it would be easier to control and monitor her/it. Is it also explained why she takes an interest in Jensen?
Edit: Re Rogerian psychotherapist—now
that would have made for a fantastic conversation. I would gladly suffer all the gameplay elements I disliked if there was interesting shit like that. Ooh potential ... wasted.
