*SPOILERS* Impressions at the end of it all *SPOILERS*

Dia on 11/10/2011 at 15:53

Quote Posted by DDL

The point is, that while it didn't do everything perfectly, it MADE A FUCKING EFFORT. The level of detail and choice and conversational depth and so on, while perhaps not quite living up to vanilla DX standards, is still a major step up from the increasingly ubiquitous "cover-based shooter".

'Nuff said.

And well said at that.

june gloom on 11/10/2011 at 18:18

Yeah, the fact that this is 2011 and they made a game that is at least 90% like a game from 2000 is a fucking miracle in and of itself.

And good lord Deven's posts keep getting more and more obnoxiously elitist and pseudo-intellectual (and bonus points for persecution complex.)

You're in the wrong subforum, buddy. Go (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=65) here.

Keeper Deven on 11/10/2011 at 19:58

Quote Posted by dethtoll

If you think that I have pseudo-intellectual pretensions, it’s because Deus Ex made me expect them:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsGNHYI80jk)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COwfIhvRtNw)

See, Deus Ex was one of three games that weaned me off my obsession with Half-Life. When I first played the Liberty Island level and heard the NSF mooks’ conversations, I knew this was something special—someone had actually treated the story with intelligence :shock:. I’ve since found this in other games; I didn’t in Human Revolution.

Now, to the other things I think you’re alluding to. The flesh–machine thing is a recurring trope in cyberpunk, but maybe its symbolic appearance in System Shock 2 was coincidental, and Ken Levine’s later, far-from-stellar writing would certainly support that. So I’ll concede this.

Finally, there’s Chris Avellone. He’s the Planescape: Torment guy, so maybe the charge of pseudo-intellectual wankery has some truth to it. Anyhow, here’s his take on the Force in Star Wars by way of KotOR2: ‘It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.’

Here’s the full video: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1aDMnh1ksE). There are quite a few interviews where he talks more about trying to make sense of the whole idea of the Force in Star Wars. Do not diss the Avellone; the man knows game writing.

Finally, as I have said before, whether I enjoy a game has little to do with my preconceptions about the game. Nor does it depend on whether it’s higher than the standard of mediocrity in 2000 or in 2011. The fact that it does for so many indicates a kind of resignation, and I don’t think this bodes well for the franchise. Here’s why: when Dragon Age: Origins was first released, its strongest critics knew that this wasn’t the Baldur’s Gate spiritual successor the fans wanted. But they decided that they weren’t going to get any better, and so they should lie back, take it and love it (e.g.: (http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=195)). Fast forward a year and a half later, and they got Dragon Age 2 ((http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=224)). In contrast, No Mutants Allowed were very vocal about what they hated in Fallout 3. They got the far superior Fallout: New Vegas. Make of that what you will; I’m headed back to the Codex.

Edit:

Re elitism, here's an exercise for you. Check out this post: (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108360). Should RBJ be content to have a (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108360&p=2030448&viewfull=1#post2030448) chicken sandwich if others don't want anything better? Discuss!!!
/trolling

ilweran on 11/10/2011 at 21:32

Quote Posted by Keeper Deven

Finally, as I have said before, whether I enjoy a game has little to do with my preconceptions about the game. Nor does it depend on whether it’s higher than the standard of mediocrity in 2000 or in 2011. The fact that it does for so many indicates a kind of resignation, and I don’t think this bodes well for the franchise. Here’s why: when Dragon Age: Origins was first released, its strongest critics knew that this wasn’t the Baldur’s Gate spiritual successor the fans wanted. But they decided that they weren’t going to get any better, and so they should lie back, take it and love it (e.g.: (http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=195)). Fast forward a year and a half later, and they got Dragon Age 2 ((http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=224)). In contrast, No Mutants Allowed were very vocal about what they hated in Fallout 3. They got the far superior Fallout: New Vegas. Make of that what you will; I’m headed back to the Codex.

DX fans have also been very vocal about what is wrong with HR - many of us who like it have been vocal about it's flaws, to the extent that I know on other forums I've risked putting people off buying it. It's not like we've meekly accepted it without criticism.

june gloom on 11/10/2011 at 22:48

Don't bother. He keeps ignoring that so he can be all WELL I'M SMARTER THAN YOU FUCKING CASUALS BUYING EVERY SHIT

And is he seriously saying anyone gave a fuck what No Mutants Allowed thinks? NMA are the forum that had a 4-page flamewar over what a FO1 dev meant when he said he liked Fallout 3.

gb2codex Deven, we have enough elitists with poor debate skills as it is

mgeorge on 12/10/2011 at 00:27

Christ. The usual TTLG crap. One guy comes in, gives his opinion, and most here are shitting all over him. If someone doesn't agree with the majority of people posting here, there're self righteous elitist idiots.

Find any significant faults with Thief, SS2, DE, and you're wrong. Like T3, DEIW, Bioshock? You're an idiot who doesn't deserve to post in this forum.

With that out of the way, I'll give you my opinion of HR.

The augs are my biggest issue. I found many of them useless. And unlike DE, and just like IW, you’re allowed to take any aug you please. You can’t change them on a whim like IW, but by the end of the game you have so many praxis points available, (again, just like IW), you can pretty much max out any aug you want. What happened to tough choices? eg; Cloak or Radar Transparency? Seriously dampens replayability IMO. By the end of the game I was taking augs I had absolutely no interest in, simply because I didn’t know what to do with all the praxis points I had. Kind of like IW. Well, I guess I’ll take this cool break through walls aug, oh and this cool looking fall silently aug, and how about that “cone of vision” aug?

The story was OK, I didn’t really have an issue with it, other than knowing who “patient X” was 5 minutes after starting the game. And I also didn’t believe for one min. that what’s her name was dead. And I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer either. But, go ahead TTLG. I’m ripe for the picking.

The AI was better than the original, but not by much. Either incredibly stupid or insanely superhuman. I personally didn’t like the 3rd person takedowns, but stealth was better than the original. Lots of people liked the police station, but I found it redundant. Pretty much every office you go, a copy of the previous office, (actually in most of the game as well), with a desk drawer with some goodie in it and some vent to get in and out. And while I’m sure a real police station probably does have many lookalike offices, I found it tedious.

And while it’s true there was always more than one way to approach an objective, with multiple routes, they seemed more contrived in HR than DE. Kind of like IW. I won’t even discuss my opinion of the boss fights, because I agree with everyone else in that regard.

If there’s a theme in my post it’s that I found HR similar to IW in many respects. Both had fairly generic stories, both had push a button multiple endings, and both had similar gameplay. But HR does trump IW in the stealth, hacking, (although even the hacking got old around ¾ of the way through), complexity of the story and difficulty, as IW was far too easy. HR is the better game for sure, but not by the huge margin most would say. I actually enjoyed IW's augs quite a bit more than HR's.

I miss skills from the original.
I miss scrounging every nook and cranny for multitools and lockpicks.
I miss people I cared about, which both HR and IW are guilty of.
Finally, as I said earlier, my biggest gripe, I miss meaningful decisions regarding augs.

Now you may think I didn’t like the game. Not true! I enjoyed it very much and found it the best game since VTM Bloodlines. However Bloodlines was the superior game in all respects as far as I’m concerned. Still though, a damn good game in its own right. No SS2 Thief or original HL, but still a good game.

I won’t replay it anytime soon, but who knows, maybe when I do, my opinion of it will change.

Keeper Deven on 12/10/2011 at 01:53

Quote Posted by ilweran

I had been avoiding TTLG for a while so I wouldn't see any spoilers (not that it was really necessary in the end), so the impression I got from this conversation was rather different. My sincere apologies. See, this is what I mean by 'failing to gauge the community reaction'. The fault is mine.

Quote Posted by dethtoll

Dethtoll, I'm sure that providing running commentary on the epic! conflict between members new and old is part of your job description at TTLG, but hell, I'm not old enough to be getting an ulcer from this exchange with you. I even specified 'trolling' in my last post so you'd stop with the baiting. It's hard enough being elitist in this medium—and by 'elitist' I mean determined to enjoy the best that it can offer—when there's so little to be elitist about. The only way the bar's going to be raised is by expecting and demanding better. In the case of DX:HR (obligatory 'for me'), much better. If that's personally repugnant to you,...

Inline Image:

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/And+not+a+single+fuck+was+given+that+day+Adam_f235f9_2562128.gif
...guess how many fucks I give?

And BTW, I'd like to know which fan community Obsidian were responding to when they wrote the love letter to the old fans that was F:NV. I'm sure Brother None of GameBanshee would like to know so they and NMA can join forces and take over Fallout 4. Which would be glorious.

june gloom on 12/10/2011 at 02:14

hahahahaha you really think that's what elitism means oh wow

you keep saying you're leaving yet you're still here

Keeper Deven on 12/10/2011 at 03:03

*Added dethtoll to your ignore list*

I give thanks to the gods of TTLG for bestowing on us this 'ignore' button.

On principle I've resisted the ignore list for all of the racist, mysoginist and fundamentalist bigots at the Sites That Shall Not Be Mentioned. I've also tried hard to avoid posts that contained nothing but name-calling. I guess that makes you a special kind of shit, dethtoll. Be proud.

june gloom on 12/10/2011 at 03:11

You say that, but just like you keep saying you're leaving and then never do, I know you're going to read every word.

It's okay. You can't help yourself. I get it. I am accepting of your condition.