DDL on 18/9/2011 at 18:07
I think they get jobs because they make hugely successful games.
Or at least, that has to help.
Catering to us basement-dwelling neckbeards who demand that all games be as massively overly complex and inaccessible as possible is ...probably not a profitable approach.
I would personally tend to be very pleased that a modern AAA game managed to include as many DX-like aspects as HR managed, while still being very successful. It sends a message to the industry that games with more cerebral elements are still a viable market.
Yes, it did a lot of things wrong, and a lot of things..strangely, but it's still a massive, hearty step in a good direction.
Volitions Advocate on 18/9/2011 at 23:42
Just out of curiosity, since nobody has even once that I've read on these forums explained, Why is a 3PP bad? What does it take away from DX:HR?
Painman on 19/9/2011 at 00:27
Quote Posted by Volitions Advocate
Just out of curiosity, since nobody has even once that I've read on these forums explained, Why is a 3PP bad? What does it take away from DX:HR?
I can only speak for myself - I don't find the 3PP cover system immersion-breaking, but it gives me more information about my surroundings than I feel I really ought to have.
Takedowns I have more of a problem with. They take me out of the game for several seconds, show me a scene in which Adam and the bad guy aren't even necessariliy in the same spots than before hitting the button, with the camera twirling all around, then drop me back in. Sometimes it's disorienting, and when I only have a small window of time in which to drag/hide the body, it can mess me up.
gunsmoke on 19/9/2011 at 00:47
I don't mind it. The cover system was damn near necessary considering the difficulty of the combat, too.
Melan on 19/9/2011 at 07:56
I didn't mind 3rd person much in this game, because it was implemented well. I minded it in TDS because it wasn't.
Also, I will say this: the first Deus Ex was a great immersive sim and a great example of complex problem-solving, but compared to Thief, it wasn't a good stealth game. Until you got auged up for stealth, KOing opponents was often a frustrating trial-and-error exercise. Sometimes, it remained that way even afterwards.
mothra on 19/9/2011 at 10:45
i didn't like 3p cover because it gave you information you should NOT have. takedowns are "I win" buttons that suspend AI interaction during the animation - way to make your game feel broken imo. Since the DX series is about "augmenting" your body and getting an edge over your opponents they should have designed augs that give you that extra information you would have had in 3rd person.
"see through walls", "hearing range of enemies" are all augs that are completely useless because of the extra information you have from 3rd person. In 1st person those Augs would have been golden.
In 3rd person cover the guard can stand directly infront of you and still not see you - then you release the coverbutton, are still behind the box but the whole area is alerted because NOW the AI can see you. That's just ..... stupid. I know other games have similar systems but still....I thought they are gonna innovate something and all I got is health regen and the same bad cutscenes.
Volitions Advocate on 19/9/2011 at 14:09
Quote Posted by mothra
In 3rd person cover the guard can stand directly infront of you and still not see you - then you release the coverbutton, are still behind the box but the whole area is alerted because NOW the AI can see you. That's just ..... stupid. I know other games have similar systems but still....I thought they are gonna innovate something and all I got is health regen and the same bad cutscenes.
I've heard people say this, but it never once happened to me. I had been spotted several times while in cover as well.
While I understand the idea that you get more information being in 3PP, there is no rule in the game that says you have to use it. So again.. What does it take away? I DEFINITELY don't understand the "omgwtf3PPLadders" complaint.
DDL on 19/9/2011 at 14:24
Yeah, it really is as simple as 'not using it'. Unbind the 'cover' key, if you want.
Hell, unbind the takedown key too, why not?
It seems odd to complain so vehemently about an aspect of a game that makes it 'too easy' when that very aspect is entirely optional.
Personally I didn't mind it, I felt it was a pretty good substitute for lean, in the end. And I still used the hell out of the 'see through walls' aug because...it can see through fucking walls. Taking cover against a wall might let you see round the corner of it, but it doesn't let you see through it.
As for takedowns, the AI might not spot you during the takedown, but that's all of what, 3 seconds where you're not spotted, followed immediately by the end of the takedown when you're totally visible. If you're using takedowns in a place where the AI can't spot you during it, then they won't spot you afterwards. If you're using it in a place where they should be able to spot you during, then they'll just spot you afterwards instead. I really don't see that this is a major issue.
They were hardly an I WIN button, either. If you don't have the 'double' upgrade, then two people standing together means you have to approach from the side, take one out and then manage to shoot the other guy quickly before he kills the shit out of you. Given the spacial disorientation following jumping back into first person is often enough to cost you precious seconds, this is by no means a guaranteed win. Also, it's pretty much guaranteed to get you spotted, so there goes 'ghost'. Taking the double takedown upgrade often means you spend so much time jiggling around trying to get the context specific system to recognise there are two valid targets that you get spotted. Again, not so much a win.
Plus it costs 1 bar of energy, which unless you're spending the entire time on one bar just because you're a massive resource whore, is relatively costly.
Either way, mothra, I'm amazed that you have so much negative stuff to say despite having played the entire game through twice. Clearly you got enough out of it to do the whole thing AGAIN, so why not focus on the positives?
Forever420 on 19/9/2011 at 14:38
Quote Posted by DDL
Plus it costs 1 bar of energy, which unless you're spending the entire time on one bar just because you're a massive resource whore, is relatively costly.
I did that course of action.
june gloom on 19/9/2011 at 15:38
Quote Posted by DDL
Either way, mothra, I'm amazed that you have so much negative stuff to say despite having played the entire game through twice. Clearly you got enough out of it to do the whole thing AGAIN, so why not focus on the positives?
mothra has never been capable of this except in rare cases. Hyperbole is his stock in trade, and he often defends his cartoonish overstatements with bizarre ideas for how to improve the games he seems to hate so much. And when you call him on it, he just puts you on his ignore list and spends the whole rest of the time talking about how you're on his ignore list because you're a meanie.
