Forsythe on 24/7/2002 at 04:55

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Hmm... went back and re-read the relevant portions of "Nerevar at Red Mountain" (Ashlander version of the events) and "The Battle of Red Mountain" (Vivec's version of the events). 1st off, as much as I dislike doing so I must take back something; both volumes use the term "the Tribunal" in the past-present sense, meaning that Nerevar's councillors were called such even when Nerevar was still alive. The end of the Ashlanders' text, btw, definitely states that "Thousands of years after their apotheosis, the Tribunal are still the gods of Morrowind", and Vivec says something akin to that... so it's probably a safe bet that they're all there is or was of "the Tribunal" in Nerevar's era.

Now, to the crux of the matter... both texts agree that Dagoth Ur immediately suggested destroying the tools. They both agree that Nerevar was of two minds about this and decided that his councillors would know best. Now is where the stories diverge...

As many know, the Ashlanders claim that Nerevar was murdered after he left the Red Mountain the 1st time; Vivec claims he died of his wounds. Normally I'd tend to favor anything implying Vivec was a self-serving bugger, but we have to remember that Dagoth Ur (via Dagoth Gares) says "you struck me down as I guarded the treasure you bound me by oath to defend". As much as I dislike saying it, I don't think Dagoth Ur would intentionally help Vivec in any way; I think we must accept that Nerevar helped them confront Dagoth Ur, which directly compromises the Ashlanders' tale's veracity. Why? The Ashlanders say Dagoth Ur "tried to avenge the death of Nerevar," a fairly pivotal plot point. It's possible that Nerevar helped fight off Dagoth Ur and then was murdered, but then the sequence of events in the Ashlanders' tale becomes so disordered it's less than credible.

Given that as a base, Vivec's tale continues on to say that:
1) The Tribunal initially suggested holding onto the tools in case the Dwemer returned, as a bit of insurance, and
2) Nerevar only agreed to that on the condition that they all (Nerevar & the Tribunal) swear by Azura not to use the tools.

Now, Vivec never actually says what happened to Nerevar after that point; he doesn't even mention Nerevar past that point. The various savants are conflicted on this point as well; some say that he died shortly thereafter, others say he blessed the Tribune becoming gods (Temple propaganda, IMO) before dying. It's probably safe to assume that he'd have enough prestige and influence to keep the Tribunal from using the tools while he was alive, so he likely died before the Tribunal did their number. The rest is altogether too well-known for me to need to reiterate here.

Forsythe on 24/7/2002 at 07:21

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Hmm.. I'll grant you that the Nords' account does put an odd spin on things, but I think it's safe to interpret "Five Songs" as being entirely Nord-oriented, and not fully grasping the facts from all orientations. For one, it states that "Nerevar carried Keening, a dagger made of the sound of the shadow of the moons. His champions were Dumac Dwarfking, who carried a hammer of divine mass, and Alandro Sul, who was the immortal son of Azura and wore the Wraith Mail." (in the section titled 'The Secret Song of Wulfharth Ash-King')

First off, all other sources place Kagrenac's tools at an entirely different location and further state that Dumac never knew of Kagrenac's works. Additionally, the book contradicts itself; the section titled 'Red Mountain' claims that the Heart was not in the 'eastern kingdoms' (ie: Dwemer & Dunmer lands) at all, but the section 'The Secret Song of Wulfharth Ash-King' claims that the heart was in Resdayn (the old name for Vvardenfell)

As to a "changing of the guard" for the Tribunal, there's just one bit of fairly vague evidence: both the Ashlanders' and Vivec's accounts imply that "the Tribunal" consisted of Nerevar's queen (Almalexia, of course) and his 'generals'. I suppose it's possible that Sotha Sil & Vivec served as Nerevar's only generals, but this seems unlikely from a tactical point of view. More probable, especially given that these three were Nerevar's 'favourite councilor's, is that Nerevar's council was called "the Tribunal" but only those three were formal members of it (the rest being on an advisory/consulting status).

Red on 24/7/2002 at 10:17

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Well... I'm of the opinion from what i've read so far 'you' are indeed the direct incarnation of the Nerevar but i can't disprove your point.

As far as i see it the Nerevar was the 'supreme commander' and after leaving explicit instructions (and demanding an oath be taken) your most trusted advisors, wife (tribunal) and friend (Dagoth Ur) betray your trust.

If I was the Nerevar I'd be royaly pissed at them for not only betraying me but also setting up a 'false' religion based around themselves and not the Aedra.

When you talk to Vivec is he not in anyway embarrassed that he betrayed you?

Shouldn't you the Nerevar be living in a palace and have a city named after you rather than a junior advisor-come-god who betrayed your trust and broke an oath to Azura?

Isn't your purpose to throw down the false gods?

I always wondered why some people had a bad opinion of Vivec and now I know...



You have a point but ALMSIVI have set up a false religion based around them and betrayed the old way of life in favour of one where everyone worships them and not the rightful Aedra.

Striker -



I never said ‘kill' I said banish and I know that Deadra can't be killed because I read the book where it told you. I can't remember the name but it was the one that talked about how the Aedra and Daedra were created from the blood of the two battling ‘uber-gods' the Daedra being created from the pure blood of the evil one and the Aedra from the mixed blood of them both so they have the capacity for good as well as evil.

Cheers :)

Red on 24/7/2002 at 18:29

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Yes I wish the main story line was as open ended as the rest of the game.

If they ever do an official expansion pack perhaps they should allow more possibilities to ending the main quest - like becoming a god.

On the up side unless Vivec presents himself in a way which convinces me that he is sorry for what he has done I'll chop his stupid multi-coloured head off - a befitting punishment for a heretic.

Where are the other members of the tribunal anyway?