twisty on 23/7/2002 at 14:36
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Originally posted by Alberel Talestianel Where the hell did you learn all this:confused: ... the Archmage has me out to figger this crap out!?!:mad: [SPOILER]Don't worry about the Archmage - everyone knows he smokes crack, so take their advice and just ignore him. [/SPOILER]
brunnern on 23/7/2002 at 17:02
Feed me more info about the dissappearance of the dwemer.
I've read as much as I can find.
Funny how vampires started right when they dissappeared.
GIVE ME INFO, I'm addicted.
knife.
Forsythe on 23/7/2002 at 18:18
Striker: Just FYI, Almalexia, Vivec & Sotha Sil broke their vow to Nerevar & Azura, not the Trubunal (which didn't exist then). They created the name 'the Tribunal' as a way of referring to themselves in their godhoods, in the same way that 'Almsivi' refers to the 3 of them. (Oh, and we find they swore by Azura from Vivec, just before he sends us off to Red Mountain)
Red on 23/7/2002 at 18:53
So... Nerevar was betrayed by Vivec and the other two - shouldn't he (you) be a bit pissed at the 'big 3' for betraying his (your) wishes?
Who was the Nerevar to the three before they became gods - their champion or equal?
Who were the 'big 3' before they became gods? Were they religious leaders or kings/ queens etc?
Its strange that Dagoth Ur the bad guy of the game did the exact same thing as the 'big three' did (became gods when the nerevar said not to) - why aren't you hunting Vivec et al down as well?
Has Azura some special relationship with the Nerevar or she just the Aedra 'people' take oaths on?
I take it the various Aedra (and deadra) were worshipped before the tribunal?
How powerful is Vivec compared to say Azura? She changed his skin colour etc and he could do nothing to stop her - why couldn't she just kill him?
Why is Vivec half 'yellow' half 'grey-blue' while the dunmer are completely grey-blue?
I read a book where it describes Almalexia and Sotha-Sil battaling and banishing Molag Bal (sp) it was put over in a way that suggested they only just managed to banish him - why are two 'living' gods having difficulties banishing a Daedra Prince?
Any answers to these questions would be appreciated. :)
Forsythe on 23/7/2002 at 22:07
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Originally posted by Red So... Nerevar was betrayed by Vivec and the other two - shouldn't he (you) be a bit pissed at the 'big 3' for betraying his (your) wishes?Assuming you're really Nerevar, sure; but what if you're just the reincarnation of him in a thematic sense? (ie: your soul is not Nerevar's returned, you're just doing what he would if he came back and thus living in his shoes). Sure, many people say you've "returned" and the like... but your conversation with Dagoth Ur illuminates just how flexible the interpretation of "Nerevarine" can be.
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Who was the Nerevar to the three before they became gods - their champion or equal?He was the war leader of all Chimer (all Ashlanders and all House members)
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Who were the 'big 3' before they became gods? Were they religious leaders or kings/ queens etc?Almalexia was Nerevar's queen (and, assumably, his wife)
Sotha Sil was Nerevar's magical advisor, wise man, etc.
Vivec was an advisor, and a junior one at that. (he admits this in one scroll)
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Its strange that Dagoth Ur the bad guy of the game did the exact same thing as the 'big three' did (became gods when the nerevar said not to) - why aren't you hunting Vivec et al down as well?Presumably because Almsivi isn't mutating the populace into mindless, will-less slaves. ;) Also, Sotha Sil may have used the tools on the heart in a different way than Dagoth Ur did and thus may have created different (read: less ebil) effects.
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Has Azura some special relationship with the Nerevar or she just the Aedra 'people' take oaths on?Its only outright stated that, back when the Chimer worshipped the Aedra and Daedra, she was the Daedric Prince whom Nerevar and Almsivi swore oaths upon. It's implied that so did everyone else.
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I take it the various Aedra (and deadra) were worshipped before the tribunal?Yup.
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How powerful is Vivec compared to say Azura? She changed his skin colour etc and he could do nothing to stop her - why couldn't she just kill him?She's had millennia to develop her powers; at the time, Vivec had a scant few minutes. Even when the game starts, she's got a grossly disproportionate amount of power compared to Vivec. Don't forget, in this world worshipping something gives it power... and the Daedra were worshipped for long before Vivec was a gleam in his poppa's eye.
As to why she didn't just kill him, she probably wanted to make him pay for what he did instead of just ending his life. After all, he broke an oath he swore on her; if she lets him get away with it, that takes away from the popular perception of her own power, so she has to slap him down hard in a way that future generations will recall with fear and worship. (It's only 'illegal' to worship "bad daedra")
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Why is Vivec half 'yellow' half 'grey-blue' while the dunmer are completely grey-blue?Because? ;)
(It's also possible he was somehow able to retain half his Chimer nature; maybe Almalexia & Sotha Sil are the same?)
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I read a book where it describes Almalexia and Sotha-Sil battaling and banishing Molag Bal (sp) it was put over in a way that suggested they only just managed to banish him - why are two 'living' gods having difficulties banishing a Daedra Prince?Hmm.. well, assuming this wasn't one of Vivec's Sermons (which are chock-full of outrageous lies for the most part), presumably it's due to the same reasons I proposed, above.
Edit: Fixed some typos.
Striker on 23/7/2002 at 23:56
OK, Trubunal was the wrong word to use. It was much easier than saying 'a governing council of wise Chimer who consulted the Daedra' each time. :D
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He was the war leader of all Chimer (all Ashlanders and all House members)
Actually, he was Lord Indoril Nerevar, leader of the Indoril Great House.
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I read a book where it describes Almalexia and Sotha-Sil battaling and banishing Molag Bal (sp) it was put over in a way that suggested they only just managed to banish him - why are two 'living' gods having difficulties banishing a Daedra Prince?
Daedra Princes are very powerful beings from Oblivion. It is impossible to kill ALL Daedra (From Scamps to the Princes). If you destroy their form, they are banished to Oblivion for a period of time, and can return any time after that.
Deadra Princes are impossible to kill by normal means, as can be seen if you have finished Battlespire.
-Striker
Forsythe on 24/7/2002 at 00:26
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Originally posted by Striker OK, Trubunal was the wrong word to use. It was much easier than saying 'a governing council of wise Chimer who consulted the Daedra' each time. :DHmm.. yes and no; yes, it was the wrong word; no, no other word was neccessary; the three of them swore to Nerevar and swore by Azura, but noone else was involved.
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Actually, he was Lord Indoril Nerevar, leader of the Indoril Great House.Hmm... I think you're splitting hairs, here; he was both Lord Indoril Nerevar, leader of the Indoril Great House and he was also the war leader of all the Chimer (excepting those who fought on the Dwemer side).
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Daedra Princes are very powerful beings from Oblivion. It is impossible to kill ALL Daedra (From Scamps to the Princes). If you destroy their form, they are banished to Oblivion for a period of time, and can return any time after that.
Deadra Princes are impossible to kill by normal means, as can be seen if you have finished Battlespire.True, but the question wasn't so much about killing as "why couldn't two brand-spanking-new gods dispose of one piddling lil' Daedric Prince?" ;) (Oh, and I believe you need to change 'ALL' to 'ANY')
Striker on 24/7/2002 at 02:03
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Hmm.. yes and no; yes, it was the wrong word; no, no other word was neccessary; the three of them swore to Nerevar and swore by Azura, but noone else was involved.
I'm pretty sure they all left (leaving Dagoth-Ur to look after the heart and tools) to consult with some sort of council. The council decided not to use the tools, but also decided not to destroy them, and that was when they made the oath to Azura.
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Hmm... I think you're splitting hairs, here; he was both Lord Indoril Nerevar, leader of the Indoril Great House and he was also the war leader of all the Chimer (excepting those who fought on the Dwemer side).
Of course I'm splitting hairs, that's what I do best ;)
Perhaps instead of saying 'Actually', I should have said 'Also'.
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True, but the question wasn't so much about killing as "why couldn't two brand-spanking-new gods dispose of one piddling lil' Daedric Prince?" (Oh, and I believe you need to change 'ALL' to 'ANY')
I don't think "piddling lil'" should be used in the same sentence as 'Daedra Prince'. :P All of the Princes are near god like (If not classed as gods) in their power. The Tribunal are only tapping energy from the heart of a god, which in my opinion makes them powerful 'shadows' of a god. The fact that they could still banished Molag Bal is a great feat and worthy of the story. (And yeah it should have been 'ANY', now who's splitting hairs ;D ).
-Striker
Forsythe on 24/7/2002 at 02:48
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Originally posted by Striker I'm pretty sure they all left (leaving Dagoth-Ur to look after the heart and tools) to consult with some sort of council. The council decided not to use the tools, but also decided not to destroy them, and that was when they made the oath to Azura.Ahh, I think I see where we got mixed up in language; Nerevar did go to speak with his councellors, which (as far as I can tell, as I lack contrary evidence) consisted solely of Almalexia, Sotha Sil & Vivec.
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I don't think "piddling lil'" should be used in the same sentence as 'Daedra Prince'. :P All of the Princes are near god like (If not classed as gods) in their power. The Tribunal are only tapping energy from the heart of a god, which in my opinion makes them powerful 'shadows' of a god. The fact that they could still banished Molag Bal is a great feat and worthy of the story.Oh, I'm utterly agreed with you on this point; I just put that in to stress what I read as the emphasis of Red's question ;)
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(And yeah it should have been 'ANY', now who's splitting hairs ;D ).*whistles innocently* ;)
Striker on 24/7/2002 at 03:27
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Ahh, I think I see where we got mixed up in language; Nerevar did go to speak with his councellors, which (as far as I can tell, as I lack contrary evidence) consisted solely of Almalexia, Sotha Sil & Vivec.
If the councellors (Who Nerevar would listen to no matter what their ruling) were Vivec, Sotha Sil and Almalexia, then why would they advise not to use the tools, kill Nerevar, then use the tools? Why wouldn't they just say 'Lets use the tools to become gods ourselves.' From what I can tell, Nerevar would have protested but he wouldn't have stopped them. Unless they found out the power of the tools and decided to use them because of this new found knowledge.
I don't think there is solid evidence either way.
