Vae on 25/5/2013 at 23:06
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
I still think you could argue the same about TMA:
No you can't...as both TDP and TMA exist in the same universe.
...and I will disagree with friend Goldmoon, for the benefit of greater understanding.
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They took away the magical locations and monsters...
No, they did not...They existed just the same. 'Twas only focus that was different...a focus, on different aspects of The World.
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...they butchered the original Thief experience of darkness and mythology and replaced it with disdainful Victorian stucco.
Although I agree with your preferences, you are referring to
minor cosmetic differences and not
fundamental systemic differences...thus, The City, The World, and entire Cosmology remain intact and true.
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Having one forest mission was merely a superficial reminder of Thief's former awesomeness.
Just like you, I wished that they focused more on the magical and adventurous aspects, yet again, The World, with its' systems and environment, remain intact.
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What was broken about rope arrows that they had to "fix" them with stupid vine arrows that could be shot anywhere? Since when did Garrett need dozens of different mine types and ridiculous potions? That's not the Garrett we knew who relied on skill and simple tools instead of thousands of gadgets!
I must agree with your preference for minimalism...although, once again, these
additional extra tools are congruent with The THIEF Universe.
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Sorry, but hence TMA can never be considered canonical.
Preferences aside...the consistency of cosmology, mythos, story, and gameplay, qualify and conform to the THIEF Universe...Minor, non-systemic changes and story focus do not undermine the persistence and integrity of a Virtual World.
jtr7 on 26/5/2013 at 05:26
Yeah, TMA has the same elements in different proportions, and while it makes choices between Garrett and other characters that leave me scratching my head, the connections to the previous chapter aren't just fanservice, while TDS entirely does away with some things that both previous titles had, offers up fanservice with no depth, and adds game-y stuff the previous titles thankfully do not have. The biggest thing about TMA that diverges for me is how the missions feel drawn on grid paper. There weren't any forest missions in TDP/Gold. There were no forest missions in TDS. TMA has the only Pagan Village proper, while TDS has a section of SouthQuarter that they've taken over heavily, with the wee Docks and Auldale Gardens areas. What I'd like to see in a Thief game are more people indoors, asleep, except for guards and servants and characters who are up late/early for plot or subplot reasons--and less people hanging out on the streets, acting like it's daytime. No merchansts selling apples after the sun's gone down. Wake up the suspicious characters, the dangerous characters who are dangerous people, period, not just to the player character.
Hamadriyad on 26/5/2013 at 10:08
Ignored, by me at least.
Beleg Cúthalion on 26/5/2013 at 12:02
Just a few notes so this doesn't become another multi quote battle:
Quote Posted by Vae
No you can't...as both TDP and TMA exist in the same universe. [...] Preferences aside...the consistency of cosmology, mythos, story, and gameplay, qualify and conform to the THIEF Universe...Minor, non-systemic changes and story focus do not undermine the persistence and integrity of a Virtual World.
But calling it a "reboot/re-invention" does? Is it NuGarrett's make-up? Is it because The City is more modern (it already got more modern from TDP to TDS)? Is it because we have different factions (as if they never rotated before)? Is it because elemental crystals were replaced by mechanical constructions of a flash bomb calibre? Or is it just that people are annoyed by
anything and don't
want to see the continuity, maybe even
because of EM's very affirmations?
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No, they [the monsters etc. BC] did not...They existed just the same. 'Twas only focus that was different...a focus, on different aspects of The World.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Yeah, TMA has the same elements in different proportions
AFAIK jtr7 was never ready to accept that the apparent "lack" of steampunk technology in TDS (which I cannot agree to in the first place after having played the game several times) was due to the different City sections being shown. But you willingly accept that the huge cut down in mythological stuff from TDP to TMA or the appearance of Victorian stuff is merely a
shift in proportions? Doubling the number of gadgets is a "minor non-systemic" change but altering the appearance of elemental arrows breaks the continuity? And I'm honestly not supposed to consider this arbitrary?
Quote Posted by Vae
Although I agree with your preferences, you are referring to
minor cosmetic differences and not
fundamental systemic differences...thus, The City, The World, and entire Cosmology remain intact and true.
I wasn't writing about my personal preferences, in fact I like the more "sober" approach of TMA at least almost as much as TDP's dark mythology. I was just trying to point out that I believe many "facts" that are thrown around in the discussion are either mere opinions/impressions or they are used in a way that isn't strictly objective. And I hope the examples cited make my point clear. Plus, I think I can both see a game's (or movie's, book's) weaknesses and still like it or accept that my personal vision is probably not everyone else's.
jtr7 on 26/5/2013 at 12:39
If it's really a departure, I hope we CAN ignore it. That above all.
Tomi on 26/5/2013 at 12:46
Quote Posted by jtr7
If it's really a departure, I hope we CAN ignore it. That above all.
Why couldn't we? :p
Even though Subjective Effect did try his best to help out, I doubt that anyone is going to force you to play the game.
Starker on 26/5/2013 at 13:44
Sure, we don't know a lot about the new game, but so far there's no reason to think it's going to be compatible with the old games' canon.
While TMA had that industrialisation thing going on, the old stuff was still there underneath. You could see old things being repurposed
and people struggling with the changes. Old Hammer churches, for example, were being taken over by Mechanists who themselves were an offshoot of Hammers. New security systems were installed in old buildings to complement human guards. There were still pagans and mages and zombies, it was just that they were being swept aside by the progress. The mechanical additions did not replace old things entirely.
The change from magic arrows to mechanical arrows, on the other hand, is a much bigger change. They are going for realism where the original games used magic. The trouble is that the realistic things can't be explained away by magic. It is much easier to suspend your disbelief for magic water arrows than dry ice arrows.
Also, the changes to Garrett's character are far bigger than those between T1 and T2. For one thing, while Garrett made some remarks from time to time he was not being overly talkative for the purpose of guiding the player. For another, he didn't furnish his hideouts with trophies.
From the game mechanic perspective, stuff like focus abilities and kill cams and parkour sequences and blackjack combat and blink-like ability to flit between shadows and using chandeliers/statues to kill people are quite a big departure from Garrett's previous abilities as well.
Quote Posted by Tomi
Why couldn't we? :p
You realise this will change the franchise, right? Next games, should there be any, will be influenced by it.
SubJeff on 26/5/2013 at 13:51
Quote Posted by jtr7
If it's really a departure, I hope we CAN ignore it. That above all.
I really don't understand why you care. If you're not going to play it how can you
not ignore it? Are you going to feed off the emotions of others?
Beleg Cúthalion on 26/5/2013 at 18:11
Quote Posted by Starker
Sure, we don't know a lot about the new game, but so far there's no reason to think it's going to be compatible with the old games' canon.
I disagree with practically everything you wrote there and cannot help but thinking that we're on opposite sides when interpreting what we know about Thief IV. Funny thing is, I never thought I was overly optimistic or something. :erg:
Starker on 26/5/2013 at 21:03
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
I disagree with practically everything you wrote there and cannot help but thinking that we're on opposite sides when interpreting what we know about Thief IV. Funny thing is, I never thought I was overly optimistic or something. :erg:
If it's any consolation, I too prefer TMA over TDP, mostly because I feel it is thematically more consistent. I think that TDP had the better story, though, all things considered. TMA went pretty much downhill after Life of the Party, but it still had a somewhat noirish ending, which is more than can be said of TDS.
Also, in my opinion, TDP overdid the supernatural. I feel that supernatural and dark stuff should not be around every corner, but hidden away under the surface and in the darkest corners. Even if TMA scaled it perhaps back a bit too far, I felt that it handled it better in that regard.
TDS and TMA did not have stellar stories by any means, but it worked because they kept it minimalistic. They provided you with a skeleton of a story and you had to fill in most of the stuff yourself. So far, new Thief seems to be more in the vein of TDS in the cutscene department at least.
