So... no World Cup thread yet? (also featuring TTLG fantasy world cup game) - by D'Arcy
SD on 30/5/2006 at 16:17
Quote Posted by zacharias
Also have my doubts about Gerrard at international level vs the best teams.
Gerrard has played approximately 45 minutes of international football in his true position (his words). In some ways, his versatility has counted against him, because he's perfectly capable of playing in any outfield position, and indeed, has done so at various time throughout his career.
I'd agree that he has yet to dominate games for England like he does for his club, but that's largely because he's so often used in the wrong way. Hopefully this time round Eriksson will have the nous to build the team around Gerrard, rather than trying to push square pegs into round holes as he has done consistently through his England managership, but judging by the rumours for tonight (Gerrard to play in the Rooney role as withdrawn forward) I'm not holding out much hope.
Quote Posted by D'Arcy
if by 'technically gifted' he means the reception, ability to pass the ball, ball control, etc, then yes, England has some good players in the midfield like this. If he meant skillful players, who have the ability to dribble easily past an opponent, or create dangerous plays in a very small space, surrounded by adversaries, then no, England doesn't have them and very rarely has one.
I don't think a lack of outstanding dribblers will hurt the England team's chances to be frank. English teams have rarely played that way, but their European trophy haul measured against the continental sides is pretty impressive.
That said, Lennon and Walcott are both accomplished and pacy dribblers (perhaps not quite in the Cristiano Ronaldo class in that regard - but who is?) should England need to call upon that sort of player.
I don't agree that England has a lack of creative players however. England is blessed with more creative players than it has had in a long time. I'd say this part of the modern English game is too often overlooked because of the traditional view of English players as being 'cloggers' - highly physical but lacking technical ability. It's just not true any more.
Quote Posted by Myoldnamebroke
Anyway, every football thread ever on TTLG turns into a StD ALL LIVERPOOL PLAYERS ARE GODS versus D'Arcy HAHAHA ENGLISH FOOTBALL LOL. So don't.
Oi! Not all Liverpool players are gods. There is only one God (Fowler) and Eriksson didn't pick him for the squad ;).
And for the record I don't believe England will win the World Cup either. They certainly have a chance, and I believe their players are as good as anyone else's, but after 5 and a half years in the job Eriksson still has no idea how his team should play. If England had a manager with the tactical ability of a Wenger or Benitez, they'd be lethal.
Matthew on 30/5/2006 at 17:03
The Alien Magicians have joined the league!
In which I fully expect to come last, given the fact that my boys are wearing a replica of my recently-relegated home team's strip.
Fragony on 30/5/2006 at 17:55
Quote Posted by D'Arcy
Hey, I'm a big fan of english football, and have been following the Premiership (and even before that) for many years. I just find that ENGLISH/LIVERPOOL PLAYERS ARE GODS mentality funny. Maybe because my typical attitude is the opposite, meaning that I'm always saying 'PORTUGUESE PLAYERS SUCK!' ;)
Ahhh the english team, the most overated team by english people in the world.
Can't buy greatness mia muca's, it needs to be homegrown. Look at the dutch, we are a talent factory. Shame the $ from manchester usa is so good, we lose them all to the $, but world-cup is the battle of nations. Be glad it isn't fought by our navy's :cool:
zacharias on 30/5/2006 at 18:07
I meant i have my doubts about Gerrard (being able to do what he does with Liverpool at international level) even if he's playing in an roaming/attacking midfield role..there are some real monkeys in the EPL. The type of plays he can typically make in EPL would/might be shut down by higher quality defences/midfields etc.
Still i might be underestimating him (i do think he's a very good player, fwiw). We shall see eh..
Shevers on 30/5/2006 at 18:11
As it turns out, I'll be on holiday for a while during the group stages, so this year I won't be able to avoid the "Come on England!" chants all about the place this year. :(
Plus I might miss a game I was really looking forward to - Japan vs. Brazil.
thefonz on 30/5/2006 at 18:21
Its going to be an interesting world cup from my perspective since i'm in Australia from the first day next week till the start of july; which means i'm back in London in time to see England get knocked out in the Quarter Finals.
It'll be interesting, not only because Brazil play Australia while i'm over there, but because Australia are in the world cup and from my limited knowledge of aussie sports i dont think football ranks as high as australian rules or straight out rugby over there.
And if Scots is reading this; then yes sir - i will be watching the football so you'd better find a suitable pub for me to goto or get cable tv installed in your flat...
On the matter of whom is going to do well; as a Scotsman of course I CANT SUPPORT ENGLAND, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU ENGLISH PEOPLE SAY I SHOULD (at work anyway). Therefore I'll be supporting either australia or spain.
Australia: because i'm there for all their group games and i dont want to get lynched by not supporting them.
Spain: because you can never predict how they'll do, therefore limiting the chances of disappointment.
However if the final ends up being between Australia and Spain, I'm royally fucked - and not in the good way.
SD on 30/5/2006 at 18:43
Quote Posted by zacharias
I meant i have my doubts about Gerrard (being able to do what he does with Liverpool at international level) even if he's playing in an roaming/attacking midfield role..there are some real monkeys in the EPL. The type of plays he can typically make in EPL would/might be shut down by higher quality defences/midfields etc.
Higher quality defences like AC Milan's or Chelsea's you mean?
And what do you mean about the EPL containing monkeys? Along with the Spanish league it's the strongest in the world.
And I don't care if you are Shaka Hislop or Gianluigi Buffon, no way are you getting close to one of Gerrard's thunderbolts.
Quote:
Still i might be underestimating him
Damn straight. The guy is 25 years old (26 today actually, HB Stevie!) and he's scored in the final of the European Cup, UEFA Cup, FA Cup and English League Cup. I don't think there is a weakness to his game. He's the most complete midfielder in the world today, and if he has a good World Cup, I fully expect him to be named as the World Player of the Year in 2006.
zacharias on 31/5/2006 at 06:12
I realise that you're quite enamoured with him ;)
haha btw the Milan champs league final doesn't, doesn't count. They thought they'd won, got complacent and went to sleep. Freak game which a wise person wouldn't draw any conclusions from.
re. Monkeys..there's lots of very average players..(spain too and probably in any league) you know what i mean...hell if our parents had pushed us you or i could have probably played EPL level..but at international level these average players have generally been whittled down to a handful.
So on the one hand, you're right that he's got an amazing shot that if he gets right no keeper is gonna get near. The thing is that theres probably 10-15 other players have similar shooting ability in world football too (Nedved, Ronaldinho etc...incidentally he's, erm, an attacking midfileder/striker better than Gerrard (shocking)).
What i'm getting at is that at the very highest level the difference between success/failure in tight control (creating the time and space to set up these shooting chances vs. whether the defence is good enough to counter these) is what it's all about..(That's where the monkeys come in.)
"He's the most complete midfielder in the world today"...Sorry, that's completely unproven at international level, as yet. Over the next month or so we'll see if that's close to being true.
Myoldnamebroke on 31/5/2006 at 06:53
I'm not convinced the internationals necessarily represent the top of the world game at the moment - I think the later stages of the Champions' League probably feature defenses as strong if not stronger than the international sides. They play together as a unit more and the few top European clubs can pick the very best from across the world, not just one country.
And to be honest, you can apply the same to a lot of players - they've not had a World Cup so nuh uh, internationals are HARD. Ronaldinho, for example. He was a gifted but fairly lazy PSG player last time around, and nowhere near the player he is at the moment. Therefore, he's not very good because he hasn't been tested against an international defense at a world cup yet.
And you also can't cite Ronaldinho as a rival to Gerrard as a more complete player - he's better at beating defenses, certainly, and few can rival him for flair, but he also tends to go missing for large periods of the game (same applies to Lampard, I think, and certainly recently). When he's involved he's pure class, but Gerrard has a better all-round game. Trying to make comparisions between the two in this way is a bit daft anyway - it's kind of like deciding 'this song is the best song ever, this one is 0.7% worse and so is only the 2nd best song'. They're both world class players that would be in everyone's starting lineup if you could have them.
zacharias on 31/5/2006 at 07:26
I agree that the champs league is almost certainly a better general representation of players standards than the big international tournaments. (the exception might be the very theatricality/huge scope of the world cup which some players rise to..(hard to explain, but i don't think it's just me that values the higher stakes and the extra testicular fortitude required)).
Anyway, ronaldinho is proven at the highest level merely on what he's done there this year in the champs league, domestically, plus having had a decent world cup last time (not great but definitely with important contributions). Gerrards been great too, but in context it seems somewhat different (ie. Liverpool are not amongst the most successful clubs recently, even if he is their talisman).
I agree the comparison's a bit daft, as is anything along the lines of 'most complete midfielder in the world' cause there are so many styles of play.
'They're both world class players that would be in everyone's starting lineup if you could have them.'
I think you've contradicted yourself a bit here, on the one hand you've said we can't make direct comparisons between players (fair point) then said he'd make any teams starting lineup (as if international teams play the same way).
I'd say he'd make any teams lineup that plays similar to england. Brazil's an obvious example of a completely different style. Would he make their team? (Just purely on fitting into the team, not talking about quality.)
