So... no World Cup thread yet? (also featuring TTLG fantasy world cup game) - by D'Arcy
Myoldnamebroke on 3/7/2006 at 16:43
A league situation is different to a knockout one. You really don't have to win that many games to win a World Cup.
Anyway, the main point isn't the supporters, it's the managers and players that the article was referring to. And I do think they go into every game thinking they can win. If you can get to the World Cup finals you're entitled to think you can go all the way. The point is, it's hardly 'deluded' to go into the World Cup as England manager thinking 'we can win this', just as it wouldn't be deluded for the managers of Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Ukraine, Ghana, the Ivory Coast, Argentina, France, etc etc etc to think the same thing.
D'Arcy on 3/7/2006 at 16:46
Quote Posted by Paz
"Everyone in England thinks we have a God- given right to win the World Cup."
This pretty much sums up the oppinion I have of the average english supporter ;)
Headphones on 3/7/2006 at 16:49
Quote Posted by Myoldnamebroke
A league situation is different to a knockout one. You really don't have to win that many games to win a World Cup.
The point is that as much as Aston Villa fans love Aston Villa, they accept that their team isn't good enough to win anything. England fans/players/coaches/jornalists lack this humility and clearmindedness.
To make myself even more explicit, until the English accept that their players/teams are not as good as they think they are, they will always be disappointed.
A quarter final is a great result for the team we have. We should be happy with it.
Myoldnamebroke on 3/7/2006 at 16:56
Quote Posted by Paz
The other thing which interests me is how England always manage to go out of competitions with the kind of narrative which most film-makers would shy away from. Only Italy can really rival them in this department ... surely this isn't mere chance or coincidence?
There really haven't been all that many World Cups, so it's very likely it's just chance. If England went out dramatically in a large number of the World Cups between now and the year 3000, then it's probably not chance. But between 1950 and 2006?
Quote:
The point is that as much as Aston Villa fans love Aston Villa, they accept that their team isn't good enough to win anything. England fans/players/coaches/jornalists lack this humility and clearmindedness.
The point is actually that you just need a bit of skill and a lot of luck and just about anyone can win an international knockout competition. There aren't that many games and the best teams are pretty evenly matched. Comparing it to a long, drawn-out campaign in a league only recently being massively dominated by a couple of clubs is disenginous. If you can reasonably expect to get to the quarter-finals of a competition it's not deluded to think you can win it. And if it is a delusion it's more a sign of the necessary competitive 'arrogance' to succede at the top level of sport rather than for some broader sociological cause.
Paz on 3/7/2006 at 17:04
Quote Posted by Headphones
A quarter final is a great result for the team we have. We should be happy with it.
Hmm, not sure about that.
In the sense of THIS campaign - yes. The qualifying was universally drab and littered with obvious signs of problems waiting to happen. A large chunk of the side were clearly off form (due to injury or whatever else). Certain aspects of the management were questionable. Anyone thinking England would light up the competition was a mentalist.
However, then they beat Argentina in a friendly. The problems were still there - but, as is often the way in football, the result was key. Despite the fact that Pekerman should have been (and probably was) at least as happy with that performance as Eriksson, England had beaten one of the fancied sides 3-2; surely the World Cup victory was inevitable?
No. Not really.
AND YET. Football is a mysterious beast. Greece ground their way to success in Euro 2004 with a combo of luck and a superb game plan. Therefore, to say anyone should be "happy" with a quarter final (in general), is surely incorrect.
It is possible to win the World Cup with players worse than those England can offer. It is (I would assume) much easier if you have better players - but player quality isn't the beginning and end of everything.
You need stuff like the bizarre magic which has woken France from their slumber and turned back the clock to Euro 2000 for their side. I don't know what the hell that is ... and therein lies the problem.
SD on 3/7/2006 at 17:17
Quote Posted by Paz
Again, there surely must be some rationality behind this somewhere?
RUTHLESS GERMAN EFFICIENCY™
Quote:
It is possible to win the World Cup with players worse than those England can offer.
Not just possible; it's guaranteed to happen at this World Cup. I can't even begin to figure out which of the following outcomes sounds most laughable:
Robert Huth, World Cup Winner
Nuno Valente, World Cup Winner
Marco Materazzi, World Cup Winner
Jean-Alain Boumsong, World Cup Winner
Shevers on 3/7/2006 at 17:18
Quote Posted by Myoldnamebroke
The point is actually that you just need a bit of skill and a lot of luck and just about anyone can win an international knockout competition. There aren't that many games and the best teams are pretty evenly matched. Comparing it to a long, drawn-out campaign in a league only recently being massively dominated by a couple of clubs is disenginous.
I think you're missing the point of his comparison. Would "Do you think Aston Villa fans believe they're going to win the FA Cup?" be a better comparison for you?
Not that I can be bothered agreeing or disagreeing with that point right now.
Paz on 3/7/2006 at 17:28
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Marco Materazzi, World Cup Winner
It's this one :D
Huth played the rather easy game against Ecuador, but (I think) no others. Boumsong isn't going to get anywhere near the pitch, unless the rest of the French defence spontaneously combusts. Valente is just part of the wacky "rubbish in the Premiership, but quite good at international level" brigade (see also cute, chubby-cheeked Maniche!)
Still; Harry Kewell, European Cup Winner/FA Cup Winner
Weird shit happens in this game.
{edit} wait, a much better one - David May, fucking EVERYTHING winner! Except the World Cup, obviously. {/edit}
Shevers on 3/7/2006 at 17:36
I think Boumsong is the only one there more laughable than the likes of David James and Gary Neville.
Reminds me of a conversation I heard about how depressed Phil must be to be "the rubbish Neville".
Headphones on 3/7/2006 at 18:09
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Not just possible; it's guaranteed to happen at this World Cup. I can't even begin to figure out which of the following outcomes sounds most laughable:
Marco Materazzi, World Cup Winner
Materazzi was good against Australia! Until he got sent off.
edit : re David May - I think Andy Cole, while less embarassingly shit, is the only player ever to win EVERYTHING isn't he? League/FA/CL at United, LC at Blackburn. I may be wrong tho! haha anal!
