Bucky Seifert on 5/12/2016 at 18:17
Obviously I mean in the context of the game universe but do we know for sure if the Builder was an actual figure, or just part of the Hammerite doctrine that has no known basis in reality? I know things like holy water exist and have an actual effect, so blessing can be real, but is it known for sure if the Builder is real? I always wondered this.
Random_Taffer on 6/12/2016 at 00:16
Yes. IIRC, he was an actual historical figure according to the devs.
zoog on 6/12/2016 at 00:21
If you've got the faith - then you already "know" it, if you don't - then nothing could convince you (even if there is anything:) ) and you go to the stake. As easy as every dogmatic conception. And all church magic - doubter can attribute it to nature.
Kristijonas on 6/12/2016 at 02:25
As zoog says.
He exists to me.
downwinder on 6/12/2016 at 05:05
yes the master builder was the first hammer i think who started the religion,also i am sure he comes from a pagan family,the hag might have known him also
Purgator on 6/12/2016 at 13:56
Yes. The Builder is real. His name is Bob.
Yandros on 6/12/2016 at 15:58
Quote Posted by downwinder
yes the master builder was the first hammer i think who started the religion,also i am sure he comes from a pagan family,the hag might have known him also
The Master Builder (a human) ≠ The Builder (a deity). And there's nothing in the canon I know of to suggest that TMB was born a pagan, or that he might have known Gamall. Where do you get these ideas? :D
Increasing on 6/12/2016 at 17:57
Well, that Hammer rituals have some actual effect in the gameworld while we saw nothing that suggests how their "magic" has the same source as the pagan one should by itself suggest existence of some kind of power/deity.
You won't find anything more that that in the games, anymore than anything that directly disproves his existence (at least in the form that is presented by the Hammerites).
Platinumoxicity on 7/12/2016 at 11:38
I think the Builder was basically a person or a group of people who invented and popularized more modern building techniques, such as using stone, brick, mortar, hammers, nails, planks, beams and tile roofing as opposed to mud, branches and straw. Eventually the building traditions that were passed down became legends of one person, and for some kind of primitive superstitious community cohesion a church, doctrine and faith were formed around it, and "The Master Builder" was deified. Magic is just technology, but priests who became familiar with it attributed it to their god, just like all other technology. It's like Earth's religions. Actual human accomplishments in progress and civilization are blessings by a benevolent god, and failings are attributed to human weakness, or "false gods" -ie. competition for their dogma. In the case of the Thief universe however, ironically that false god actually existed. Whether or not Constantine ever was "a god" is irrelevant. He might just have been a powerful ancient being subjugating primitives, but couldn't maintain control of an increasingly civilized and powerful populace. A large group of clever humans gained control over the elements equal to that of a singular demon of the ancient world.
I don't believe the Trickster is any sort of a creator god. And neither is the Builder. There are forces older and more powerful than the Trickster, as demonstrated by the Trickster's need of The Eye in his Dark Project. The world is built of four elements. Their co-operation in holding existence together is the essense of balance in its most basic form. Trickster is chaos, Builder is order. Neither of these extremes seems likely to be the source of such an organized and chaotic world. It isn't far-fetched to think that therefore Keeper glyph magic originates from something that's related to the origins of the world itself. Before chaos and order. Afterall, Deadly Shadows demonstrated that their feeble attempts at keeping balance were only overcorrections to which ever direction the power always shifted, and that's why Garrett had to come and put an end to it. The use of the glyphs was a ripple that became waves and ultimately a storm when other ripples tried to be used to cancel it out.
