derfy on 8/4/2016 at 13:32
Isn't there a song about this?
"How many dicks must a man suck on, before you call him a connoisseur"?
Something like that at least.
Renault on 8/4/2016 at 15:36
@Fett, that's an interesting religious journey you've been through there. I just would be cautious about completely dismissing people who have found comfort in organized religion. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it won't work for others. I know BruderMurus has been somewhat aggressive (and even asshole-ish) in this thread, but not all religious folks are that way. Your tone is just very condescending and a bit high and mighty. That might be offensive to some decent people who aren't BruderMurus. I don't know, maybe that's not a big concern of yours, but I thought I'd mention it.
(in case you're wondering, no, I'm not referring to myself here, and no, I'm not religious, I haven't been to a church in 30 years outside of weddings).
Pyrian on 8/4/2016 at 16:56
Quote Posted by Brethren
Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it won't work for others.
I seem to recall that religion not working for others was very much involved.
fett on 8/4/2016 at 17:41
Quote Posted by Brethren
@Fett, that's an interesting religious journey you've been through there. I just would be cautious about completely dismissing people who have found comfort in organized religion. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it won't work for others. I know BruderMurus has been somewhat aggressive (and even asshole-ish) in this thread, but not all religious folks are that way. Your tone is just very condescending and a bit high and mighty. That might be offensive to some decent people who aren't BruderMurus. I don't know, maybe that's not a big concern of yours, but I thought I'd mention it.
(in case you're wondering, no, I'm not referring to myself here, and no, I'm not religious, I haven't been to a church in 30 years outside of weddings).
Yeah - sorry. My derision is totally aimed at the dogma, not the individual - usually. I typically only respond as I did to people who have taken the initiative to school me about God as if I know nothing about it. If they start with a such a haughty and arrogant assumption, I respond in kind. Murus certainly met that criteria.
As for the belief systems themselves, I do think they're ridiculous. I've come to that conclusion not by just Thinking About It or because someone else convinced me they were. I arrived here because I fought long and hard to understand the Abrahamic religions, their theology, the related languages and cultures, etc. Valid or not, I feel like I've more than earned the right to make bold and confident statements about the fallacies and deception that have taken place for centuries to promote these belief systems.
That said, I wouldn't dream of trying to dissuade someone from anything that brings them comfort, no matter how stupid or ridiculous I think (or know) it is. That's a very private thing and why go out of my way to rob someone of that? However, if when they start foisting it on me, or prescribing it as the cure for all my ills, I will start punching holes in the belief system itself. I look at it this way - if someone's crass/bold/stupid enough to engage a total stranger in a theological discussion, they get what they deserve. I don't walk up to people and pull out a knife because for all I know, they may have a gun. I don't initiate arguments with anyone about religion - but if they initiate it, they need to be prepared to defend their beliefs or get clobbered. It's picking a fight, plain and simple, when it's done the way Murus did it. I am always willing to have a civil discussion about religion and belief, with all respect to the other individual. But opening a dialogue by trying to proselytize me is always going to be met with the vitriol it deserves.
Edit: And Pyrian is right. I've traveled the world of the Christian sub-culture and I can count on one hand the times the belief system was actually working for anyone. I think the fact that Trump's base is comprised of Evangelicals right now kind of proves the point that Christianity works really well when it's being used as a justification for hate and superiority. Outside of that, I've yet to see the evidence of it actually working for anyone in the sense that it makes them more Christ-like. If it even worked 10% of the time, there would be no orphanages or women's shelters in the Western Hemisphere. There would be no homeless problem, and no poverty. I won't go into the math here, but until Western Christianity puts its money where it's mouth is, I'm going to continue to call bullshit - not on the people (because they're simply being human) but on the claim that they're following Jesus. Because they're not. I said this same thing repeatedly as a pastor, and I'm still saying it now as a non-believer. It's not my current perspective that informs that view - I've been saying it since I was fourteen years old, and it continues to be true, regardless of which side of the fence I'm standing on.
Thirith on 8/4/2016 at 18:20
I think you may equate Christianity with Evangelicals a bit too readily. I'm not denying that there are many people calling themselves Christians who are either Evangelicals or close enough, but at least in my country these people don't have anywhere near the power that they have in the US. You get free churches that are bigoted and hateful, but you also get churches - including many Protestant and, surprisingly, Catholic ones* - that are very much political/social activists with a religious perspective, and while they are as prone to internal politics and bickering as anyone else, I think they do a pretty good job of striving to be Christ-like. Similarly, I used to work with a network of young social activists from around the world, and many of the ones from Latin America and Asia would very much self-identify as religious and often as Christian - while doing grass-roots work towards poverty alleviation and the like.
*About ten years ago when the Pope visited the capital, one of the biggest groups protesting was actually the local Catholic church, saying that they were willing to welcome and host him, but they would equally criticise what they saw as the Vatican's self-serving hypocrisy.
fett on 8/4/2016 at 19:00
Obviously I'm painting with a pretty broad brush here. I know it's different in many European countries, but you're also living in a post-Christian era where groups that self-proclaim as Christians do so many times because they actually are, rather than defaulting to that label because it's culturally expected. In the U.S. the majority of actual church-attending people who subscribe to belief in the Christian God are by evidence of their social/political views, very much what you'd consider an Evangelical. My experience, while very broad for someone of my background, is limited. Which is why I say again - I have no beef with people believing what they want, and I don't actively attack or oppose it. It's why I don't feel comfortable in atheist organizations or even identifying as one. I do however take issue with those beliefs being used to make laws or even used in attempts to convert me or my family because someone thinks it will make everything better. This thread is a great example - I probably mentioned something about being a non-believer offhandedly in a post (I don't remember how it even came up), but I don't voluntarily engage myself in or initiate those conversations. I only respond if someone else tries to proselytize me. I don't mean to stereotype or offend any religious person. It's just incredibly difficult to address someone personally and in kind without doing it. Even the personal comments I directed at Murus weren't intended to describe or point to anyone else here. I said what I did because of the way he brought it up and the assumptions he made - it tells me a lot about him, but I don't judge anyone else by his words. There's a really big insecurity there and a need to score points that I doubt anyone else here nurses. And I assume that because you didn't feel the need to do what he did.
Matthew on 8/4/2016 at 22:52
Sorry to run off-topic with this, fett, but I remember that a few years back you set out your experiences in a very detailed post. Would you have a handy link to that at all?
Kolya on 9/4/2016 at 00:20
Hey, BruderNicolaus here. So I just had to read through all this just to find that you're still alive. Well played fett, well played.
Oh, I recently saw a (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYWmYJNg5Jw) documentary about a new container for transplant hearts that keeps the heart alive and beating instead of just putting it on ice and hoping for the best. Made me think of you and dinner the night before.
Stay sharp you self-righteous old man. And don't forget to join my (
https://www.systemshock.org/) church (only $99). Last chance before star dust! Possibly!
Mr.Duck on 10/4/2016 at 11:25
Welp, for my 2 no-one-asked-for-them-but-I-don't-care cents, I do lean towards the side of believing in a superior force. Though I subscribe to no religion 'cuz eff that.
COME AT ME, MOFOS!
<3
I'll take Hell over oblivion any day of the week, to be honest, BUT that is another topic for another day. One I won't indulge in here for you waffle brains. Nom nom nom.
fettums, I'm just happy that you are alive, even if they going has been tough -still is. Here's hoping you, the missus and your boys catch a much well deserved break soon.
Derp.
heywood on 10/4/2016 at 13:14
Quote Posted by fett
In the U.S. the majority of actual church-attending people who subscribe to belief in the Christian God are by evidence of their social/political views, very much what you'd consider an Evangelical.
Not around here. It used to be hard to find an Evangelical church in New England. A sprinkling of Calvary Bible Churches but not much else. Now we have Southerners moving up here just to plant fledgling Evangelical churches, preaching out of old movie theaters, converted barns, and what not. Every once in a while I hear about some town trying to shut down one of these seed churches based on zoning violations. But despite these new missionaries, Evangelicals are still uncommon here. Most of the church goers are Cathlolic or traditional non-evangelical Protestant denominations.
