Ostriig on 23/1/2011 at 00:58
Yeah, that's true, some items could possibly benefit. At the end of the day, if anything, at least the abilities leveling mechanism needn't be any more a hindrance to suspension of disbelief than it was in the original.
Quote Posted by Manwe
Ok I guess it does make sense. Maybe I shouldn't be so pessimistic after all. And maybe I should restrain myself from making uninformed comments about this game. As for that word, "diegesis", I had to look that up, eh. I understood "breaking the fourth wall" in a game as making the player aware he is playing a game, either voluntarily or unvoluntarily. But I guess it's more subtle than that. So basically when a game tells you to press the A button, that's non-diegetic, but when your character performs the action associated to that button, that's diegetic ? Did I get this straight ?
Yes, that would be an accurate example. The system telling you to press "A" is outside of the game's fiction, whereas the resulting in-game action, like your character taking a step left, is in context. However, if instead of getting a random message in a screen corner telling you to "press A" you heard another character tell you over a radio to "step left", that would put the prompt within the diegesis. To give you another example, with both terms on the same level, consider two component's of Fallout 3's interface, the PipBoy and the HUD. The PipBoy, which allows you to manage your character (status, inventory, log, map) constitutes a diegetic feedback mechanism: it is an item within the game's fictional world, it's a physical object that is acknowledged and even used by other characters in the setting. The HUD, however, is a non-diegetic feedback component: it's just there, on your screen, no one ever explains how it's there, how NPCs in the setting or your character might perceive it (or, indeed, even if it perceived by the player
character, not just the
player).
Now, any item that breaks the fourth wall is inherently non-diegetic typically - I could possibly imagine someone out there trying to make some sort of meta-game to toy with that line - but non-diegetic elements don't necessarily break the fourth wall. Most of them just fade in the background of our perception after the initial contact with the game, much like we come to accept the ticking of the clock in the room without taking note of it anymore. The HUD in the original Deus Ex was entirely non-diegetic but we accepted it and rolled with it without being really bothered by it afterwards (though, as a sidenote, I am of the opinion that diegetic interfaces can further help ease supension of disbelief and solidify immersion). As for for breaking the fourth wall, I don't have a personal experience with this example but the most often quoted one is Metal Gear Solid in which, during a boss fight, a character tells you (the player, not the player character) to physically switch the controller plug from one port on the console to the other. Anyway, that puts an end to my rambling, hope it helps.
Tolknaz on 23/1/2011 at 17:13
I finally watched most of their promotional materials on youtube. I really don't know what to say. I am torn so far. I want this game to succeed, yet i'm somehow afraid it'll fail. Most of their presentation (music, visual style etc.) is so fucking impressive. Yet there are these alarming bits of silliness, that make me doubt. For one the original had a strong Blade Runner vibe going on. While it's still lingering there, the augmentations and overall tech looks and feels kind of Transformerish and i don't like that one bit.
SubJeff on 23/1/2011 at 21:13
The tech is an odd one isn't it? Obviously nanotechnology is more advanced than bolting bits on, but in some ways having arm-blades is of greater utility - unless you have bonkers advanced nanobots that can turn into blades. Which would be ridiculous.
And there is no doubt whatsoever that Adam looks uber-cool with his mecho-arms and orbital hardpoints, and this look is cooler than a standard looking guy with largely hidden nanotech.
You're correct in that the tech on display is far more like transforming robot bits than the molecular level tech in Bladerunner. It's a sign of the times though, in the game world. I think 1960s and 70s hotrods look cooler than many modern performance cars because I like the exposed induction inlets and so on. But the tech is far inferior to even modern town cars!
ZylonBane on 24/1/2011 at 00:00
Quote Posted by Tolknaz
What i was referring to with my "fourth wall" comment was indeed making the player more aware of the fact, that it's all a game, removing a layer, that originally made the system easier to digest by making a clear a distinction between getting better at skills by experience and getting better augmentations by physically upgrading the tech.
Breaking the fourth wall is when a character in a video game acknowledges that they're in a video game. For example, in the Infocom text adventure Planetfall, if you save your game when Floyd is nearby, he'll sometimes say, "Are we gonna try something dangerous now?" Another example would be in the platformer Bubsy, where one of his idle animations has him turn to face the player and knock on the screen (the literal "fourth wall").
What you guys are talking about is more commonly known as verisimilitude, or even more commonly as "realism".
SubJeff on 24/1/2011 at 06:43
Best 4th wall breaker, imho, is the one in BioShock. I hate that game but that was great and it made me laugh at the predictability of it all. The sad thing was it was almost mocking you and game linearity/shoe-horning in general (actually it was!) but then it made no attempt to alter anything becoming even more cliched.
ZylonBane on 24/1/2011 at 07:31
There was no fourth-wall break in Bioshock.
SubJeff on 24/1/2011 at 19:21
it was too subtle for you to notice
ZylonBane on 24/1/2011 at 19:55
Gosh, it was simultaneously mocking AND subtle?
Hey, here's a better description: It was a wildly overrated cutscene that attempted some superficial metacommentary on player agency in gaming but which fell flat on its face because it was a cutscene.
SubJeff on 25/1/2011 at 22:36
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Gosh, it was simultaneously mocking AND subtle?
Oh yeah, those two are mutually exclusive. Of course. Doh!
:rolleyes:
Melan on 26/1/2011 at 08:16
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Hey, here's a better description: It was a wildly overrated cutscene that attempted some superficial metacommentary on player agency in gaming but which fell flat on its face because
it was a cutscene.
The real metacommentary on player agency was the remaining stretch of the game, where, freed from doing what you were told to do, you were instead doing what you were told to do, including
inserting a rusty drill into your mouth to modify your voicebox and
an entire freaking escort mission. If that's not "metacommentary" on how gamers will accept anything to get to their plot tokens and cutscenes, nothing is. Now
that's mocking and subtle! :cool:
