Gryzemuis on 5/12/2008 at 10:57
Quote Posted by Andarthiel
I agree but not just Christianity, many modern mainstream religions like Islam, Judaism also tend to start conflicts(Take the Israel-Palestine war for example).
The Israel-Palestine conflict is not about "we are right and you are wrong". The conflict was about theft initially. And now it is about apartheid and racism. The big difference with other religious conflicts is that the Israelis/Jews are not out for expansion (in people). That is the main difference with Christianity (and maybe Islam). Jesus said "go forth and multiply". Aggressive expansion is at the core of the religion. The Jews believe they are the chosen people already, and there is no need for expansion. In fact, I think it's hard to join Judaism, through any other means besides marriage. (Not sure though).
Quote:
before Jesus(if he existed that is) everyone lived in relative harmony religion-wise and nobody really went about preaching and saying "Your religion is wrong you must die".
I think you look at history through rose-colored glasses. I think there have always been religious conflicts. Although some religions seem more peaceful, like Buddism.
If you look at the bible, the Old Testament (no Jesus yet) is much more aggressive than the New Testament (mainly about Jesus). In the Ten Commandments, God says: 1) I am the Lord your God and 2) You shall have no other gods before me. I think that second commandment is the cause of many religious conflicts. People talk about the New Testament in public ("love thy neighbor"), but act like the Old Testament ("and I will lay my vengeance upon thee !").
Gryzemuis on 5/12/2008 at 11:08
Quote Posted by BEAR
I've come to realize that cultural values are separate from religious values. They intertwine in places but seem to remain independent.
Weird. I believe exactly the opposite.
If I look at myself, I see a person who does not believe in any god, and really dislikes all religions. Especially Christianity, as I know it best. But on the other hand, if I look at my values, those are drenched in Christian values. I believe you should not kill or steal. I believe you should love your neighbor. There are many stories I learned as a kid that I agree with. Like the story about the talents, and how you should use them. Stuff like that. In the Netherlands religion has lost a lot of its influence since WWII. But most people still share the same old Christian values.
(And in case someone starts blabbering about the liberal values in the Netherlands: we have less drug abuse than other countries, other countries also have gay marriage, and our euthansia is basically the same as in the US. The Netherlands is a lot more conservative than we are projected in the media).
Thirith on 5/12/2008 at 12:26
I'd agree with you, LittleFlower, and I don't see how religious values (except in very superficial ways) can be separated from cultural values - especially since I don't see how religious values can be seen as anything other than yet another subset of cultural values with permeable borders. Some people may see religious values as clear-cut, unchanging and separate from culture in the sense that they're not man-made, but that doesn't really work in practice. Religious values - as practiced by people - are inherently cultural.
Obviously this might be an issue of different understandings of the term "culture", but at present I don't see any useful, feasible definition of culture and cultural values that would work with Bear's statement.
BEAR on 5/12/2008 at 15:35
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
Weird. I believe exactly the opposite.
You misunderstand me, because the rest of your post agreed with me exactly. My point was that people have the values their family raised them with. Just being a christian and going to church isn't going to instill you with the values professed by the church unless your family actually practices and enforces those values. This is why you see atheists with Christian values and christians with very little values, religion just isn't that important unless those values are mirrored by your cultures practiced values.
I'm an atheist (as if that wasn't obvious), but that doesn't mean I don't care about anyone or anything and go around doing whatever pops into my head. My view's on god have very little to do with how I treat other people in my daily life. How my parents taught me to treat people and the values they themselves have have however affected me greatly. That was my whole point before. Values are taught first and foremost by your family I think.
It really makes perfect sense when you think about it. When your brain is developing, what does it try to mimic? From whom do tiger cubs learn to hunt? Who do we learn to talk from by mimicking? Your parents. Your parents, your family and your social group. These are the things that affect us the most. Religion can only fit into that framework, it cant override it. Most of who we from birth to the time we leave home comes from our parents, and values are the same way.
So all this talk of what religion is gets kind of pointless to me, because it isn't anything. It is whatever you make it. If your parents are good people and teach you to be a good person, then you'll be a good person by your cultures standards (this is important because there is no objective standard of "good", "good" is following the culturally accepted values that you learn, they could technically be anything). If you go to church every single day with your family and sing hymns and go to Sunday school, but your father is a fucking asshole who has screwed over everyone he's ever met, you will probably have a good chance of being an asshole too. Jesus isn't around you as much while your brain is at its most mailable. He just can't compete. The thought I find so laughable is that people actually think we choose what we believe.
ercles on 5/12/2008 at 20:44
Little Flower, surely the fact that you disagree with so much that christianity stands for means that there is patently some clear separation between religious values, and cultural values on the whole. Of course this is not necessarily the case in all areas, but in areas as large and diverse as say the netherlands, this must be the case.
Andarthiel on 5/12/2008 at 23:48
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
The Israel-Palestine conflict is not about "we are right and you are wrong". The conflict was about theft initially. And now it is about apartheid and racism. The big difference with other religious conflicts is that the Israelis/Jews are not out for expansion (in people). That is the main difference with Christianity (and maybe Islam). Jesus said "go forth and multiply". Aggressive expansion is at the core of the religion. The Jews believe they are the chosen people already, and there is no need for expansion. In fact, I think it's hard to join Judaism, through any other means besides marriage. (Not sure though).
I think you look at history through rose-colored glasses. I think there have always been religious conflicts. Although some religions seem more peaceful, like Buddism.
If you look at the bible, the Old Testament (no Jesus yet) is much more aggressive than the New Testament (mainly about Jesus). In the Ten Commandments, God says: 1) I am the Lord your God and 2) You shall have no other gods before me. I think that second commandment is the cause of many religious conflicts. People talk about the New Testament in public ("love thy neighbor"), but act like the Old Testament ("and I will lay my vengeance upon thee !").
I think I may have over exaggerated with that second point, I guess the Romans were an exception but even they ended up adopting some of the religions of the people they conquered like Egypt(I'm not making that up, there were shrines and the like discovered in digs). I wasn't saying there weren't wars back then, there were plenty but it was usually little disputes between groups or a massive empire expanding it's territories. My point is that with the arrival of Christianity(particularly the Crusades) added to the chaos and gave another reason for people to kill. Whole civilizations were wiped out because of "holy" wars like these, the Aztecs for example just because they were heathens in the eyes of the Spanish(and they wanted to get rich on the gold as well).
And the Israel-Palestine war initially started because the Jews believed that the land where Palestine is was the holy land according to their religious text and they wanted to take it back. But I suppose it's been going for so long that people have forgotten what it's really about.
Queue on 6/12/2008 at 16:33
Quote Posted by aguywhoplaysthief
I miss the old fett. This is the most boring religious thread in the history of these forums. Things were much more entertaining when you were taking on all of Finnish TTLG single-handedly.
:(
Are you saying my threads suck? Suksi vittuun! :p
Actually, I want to thank everyone for the really intelligent discussion--this is of tremendous help.
Tocky on 7/12/2008 at 03:08
What tickles me is the anti western anti christian sentiment when even a cursory read of history would show all civilizations guilty. I'm sure the people the Aztecs conquered would disagree about the benign nature of thier conquests as thier heads rolled about as the ball in a football game.
I tend to favor Bears view though I'm a tad dubious about his being a nihilist. Need to read more Nietzsche for a better understanding. The moral core goes beyond later logic and is indeed entrenched in raising. God "the father" is no chance naming. Adhering to your own code however entrenched and moderated by logic is not nihilism as I understand it. What the core boils down to is a love of life and man that goes beyond logic. Nobody on earth may have your exact core but break it at your peril. Nietzsche wouldn't like that.
Just because the side that adopted chistianity was most successful doesn't mean it deserves the most derision. Far from it. It allowed for those things which would succeed, many of which were good for society as a whole. The Judeochistian exteme is certainly no worse than any extreme.
suliman on 7/12/2008 at 05:39
Quote Posted by Andarthiel
And the Israel-Palestine war initially started because the Jews believed that the land where Palestine is was the holy land according to their religious text and they wanted to take it back.
Not... exactly, no. It's more about zionism.
