Shug on 15/12/2008 at 08:57
more like dorkins
Gryzemuis on 15/12/2008 at 10:11
Just curious: how is that movie Religilous doing ? Does it actually cause any turmoil ? Or are people just ignoring it ? Is it any good ? Or just innocent entertainment ?
RavynousHunter on 15/12/2008 at 12:14
Quote Posted by ercles
Dawkins is a complete tool. If you want to actually learn anything you'll have trouble getting past him frothing at the mouth at the mere mention of religion.
True, but one should at least respect his side of the whole Evolution vs Creationism argument.
Dawkins is an anti-theist, he believes that not only is creationism a bunch of poorly-written science fiction, but that religion as a whole is an inherently destructive force that we, as a species, should really move beyond.
The basic train of thought is that we have phased out many religions before and labeled them as mythology, a prime example being the Roman pantheon. The general consensus is that the Roman deities were created in a time when the world was a very frightening place; where things happened for, what appeared at the time to be, absolutely no reason. They didn't know that thunder was caused by a bunch of ionized air particles, or that volcanoes erupted because the internal pressure of the magma exceeded what could be withstood by the volcano. Since they had no idea of the mechanisms behind such things, they drew the only logical conclusion available: deific concourse.
Considering we now have evolution and it has some pretty significant evidence backing it, anti-theists believe that its time for creationism to be relegated to the role of mythology as its place has been taken by a more logical conclusion to the question of our creation.
BEAR on 15/12/2008 at 12:58
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
Just curious: how is that movie Religilous doing ? Does it actually cause any turmoil ? Or are people just ignoring it ? Is it any good ? Or just innocent entertainment ?
It was pretty good, even if it was nothing surprising. I like Bill Maher in general and it had some funny parts. He wasn't overly assholish but he got his point across.
It was a little masturbatory at times since it was mostly stuff everyone already knows from someone we've heard most of it from before (if you watch his show at least), but it still felt good to laugh at it.
There was a goodly crowd there but Asheville is full of heathens.
Kolya on 15/12/2008 at 13:35
Quote Posted by RavynousHunter
a time when the world was a very frightening place; where things happened for, what appeared at the time to be, absolutely no reason
Information overflow seems to have largely the same effect.
fett on 15/12/2008 at 14:10
Quote Posted by Queue
Anyway, I'll cut to the chase...
I have to conclude that there is no God; if there is then why would he almost kill an innocent child just to gain my adoration. And even if that is true, at that point, God is nothing more than a petulant child that I wouldn't want to believe in.
Queue - I've been meaning to return your PM about this, but I may as well include a snippet of my story here as well since it might be helpful to BEAR and others.
Similar story - I was in leadership in a variety of ministries and churches for about 20 years (since I was 17) and heavily involved in the 'christian' music scene. My youngest son developed a life threatening stomach allergy (akin to Celiac disease) that basically forced me to quit doing anything except making food for him and trying to help my wife get sleep (he didn't sleep more than 10 minutes at a time for over a year). Prayed, prayed, prayed, tried to make sense of it - why would God 'call' me to serve him and then make it impossible for me to do so. Simultaneously, I realized that the people around me, some of whom I'd 'ministered' to for 15+ years, were complete jackholes and hadn't been affected one bit in that time by my devotion, the teaching they received, or the supposed 'work of the holy spirit' in their lives - they were the exact same people as they had always been, no more 'conformed into the image of Christ' than my toaster (which I've also had for about fifteen years. Yes, christian=toaster).
That whole dynamic caused me to realize that I was wasting my life on people who were inherently dysfunctional, and that most of the financial, emotional, and philosophical problems in my life were because of decisions made based on the 'will of god' rather than what made sense. I abandoned the whole thing as an experiment to see if my life would be any different sans bible study, prayer, fellowship with other believers. It was very different - it was 200% better in every possible way. That was 3 years ago and I'll never go back. I can't.
The bottom line is that the purpose of all that stuff is to change people from 'dead' to 'alive' from hopeless to hopeful. All I've seen in the whole time I spent in the church is misery, despair, pretending, circular reasoning, dysfunction, etc. Everyone tries to tell me that I just had a bad experience but I was in 7 different denominations, countless churches and para-church ministries on 3 different continents and nearly 10 different countries. It's the same everywhere - there is no supernatural change taking place in Christians. They're people just like everyone else, some of them good, some of them bad. They simply frame their experiences through spiritual terminology and use their beliefs to cope with life. Neither did I change dramatically because of my change of beliefs - I still love my wife and kids, am still involved in community service, love music, love to read history, etc. I haven't changed for better or worse by having or not having Jesus 'in my life.' Oddly, my christian friends have no explanation for that. :p
The only thing left to do is figure out how to quit feeling like a patsy.
BEAR on 15/12/2008 at 17:14
Would you still consider yourself a spiritual person or did you pretty much abandon the whole thing?
I see religion as being an extension of spirituality, a culture of belief built on the framework of the spirituality we're all (or at least most of us) feel in some way or another.
I'm also interested to see that both yours and Queue's stories are fairly similar. It seems to take something pretty drastic, which is unfortunate. It would be nice if it could be done less painfully, or even less fully. I think a lot of people could benefit from a spirituality that didn't conflict with the world as it is (god knows I could ;) ) Thats why Dawkins and Hitchens kind of rub me the wrong way, they seem to have little to no respect for the good sides of religion (or spirituality if the word religion conjures negative thoughts), which makes their methods seem unrealistic. It would be like telling people to live without love or something because its irrational, like yeah good luck with that.
Edit: Another question, what type economic background did you and/or the people you related to religiously come from? I've noticed that the most dogmatic, stubborn Christians have often been those with the most need for faith. People like my mother especially who had a pretty comfortable growing up were not as sucked into it as people who had less. I wonder if the negative impacts of religion could be reduced simply by improving the quality of life of people in general.
Queue on 15/12/2008 at 18:29
fett--I like my Christians toasted on 6, with a bit of grape jelly and butter.
You know, Kevin Smith said an interesting thing after making Dogma. and though I have to paraphrase, it was that too many of the devoutly religious tend to mourn their faith instead of finding joy and life in it.
BEAR--I believe that any rational thinking person would, more or less, reject religion. Unfortunately, it is something that is so ingrained into children of religious families that logic is over-ruled by the notion that something is wrong with you if you don't believe.
