Signs from God - TTLG Forums

Tocky on 14/12/2008 at 22:07

Quote Posted by BEAR

I just noticed this, did Tocky just say I was suicidal? I don't take insult if you did Tocky, just curious.

I just meant you care about more than one person. I've read your words. People are more than just things to entertain you. You are not a nihilist.

Besides I never said I would stake MY body part on it.

Queue on 14/12/2008 at 22:21

BEAR-- it's not too personal because, for the most part, it's rather boring. But, there are aspects I don't really want to getting into.
For the most part, I guess my fall from faith began with simple questions when I was much younger, ones that really no one answered well enough. Questions like: What about the dinosaurs? And, if Noah had two of everything on the Ark, then why are there penguins? How could he get two penguins?!
But, being young, I was led to believe (though I didn't know it at the time) that it was wrong to question. Fair enough.
As I got older, I found myself really questioning things--and feeling guilty about it. You see, I wanted to believe. To do so meant I was "normal" in everyone's eyes (family, friends). But, I couldn't help trying to find the answers to annoying questions, and not getting them. For a time I thought that maybe I was just going to the wrong church, and actually tried five different churches (Baptist, Methodist, Seventh-Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witness, even Catholic with friends since the town I grew up in was mostly Catholic). Yet, no matter what, as much as I wanted to believe, in the back of my mind I kept saying to myself: "This is all a bunch of hooey."
I kept wondering how, if there is a God, could he/she allow bad things to happen to good people. Of course, the standard answer was that God was testing us.
Anyway, by the time I was in my twenties I had given up going to Church, opting for my own idea of God--figuring that organized religion was nothing more than afterlife insurance for, mostly, horrible individuals. But, I still kept a belief.

Anyway, I'll cut to the chase...

My son got sick. He was two-and-a-half at the time, and had a brain tumor that almost killed him--and would have if it wasn't for emergency surgery. He was cycling down--I was helplessly watching him dying, pleading with God to save him. Well, God didn't save him, a brilliant surgeon did.
Now people will (and did) say that God allowed the events that saved him to happen, set things up that way. But, I don't see it that way.
You see, and I won't get into the details, but, I had family and friends tell me it was my fault that he got sick--that God was testing me.

I have to conclude that there is no God; if there is then why would he almost kill an innocent child just to gain my adoration. And even if that is true, at that point, God is nothing more than a petulant child that I wouldn't want to believe in.

Gingerbread Man on 14/12/2008 at 23:07

Abraham is that you?

BEAR on 14/12/2008 at 23:08

Quote Posted by Tocky

Ah, alright. You are certainly right abut that then.

Quote Posted by Queue

Thanks for sharing that. It gives me some hope that reason can take hold in someone who is indoctrinated into religion at a very early age. I'd be interested to know why that works for some people and not others, or if its just a matter of education. It kind of challenges my thought that by some age people are unreachable or that it takes some catastrophic event to change thinking. Maybe education really can at least temper or coexist with religion and its just a matter of getting a good education to everyone.

I've realized as I've gotten older how important it is to teach people to question ideas, most importantly their own. It seems that is passed over sometimes, lots of people say "question authority" and "question ideas", but questioning ones self and coming to the realization that we are not always right about what we are sure about seems to be the cornerstone of a truly rational mind (I'm not there yet myself, its not an easy thing to do).

Queue on 14/12/2008 at 23:23

Quote Posted by BEAR

I've realized as I've gotten older how important it is to teach people to question ideas, most importantly their own.

I'm of the mind that one quits growing and learning if they quit questioning. But, unfortunately, it's easier to not question--and, in a way, it's rewarded.

Thanks for asking, BEAR.

Scots Taffer on 14/12/2008 at 23:49

Quote Posted by BEAR

If its not too personal, would it be possible for you to tell exactly how you came to lose faith?

I believe it's more beneficial to understand how they came to have faith as it can often be very obvious how their departure arose.

BEAR on 15/12/2008 at 00:35

I disagree. It seems to me that spirituality is ingrained in everyone, given the fact that every culture on earth that we've ever known of has had some kind of religion or another. Faith is then a lot more common than a lack of faith. Couple that with the fact that children born into religiously stringent cultures and families are indoctrinated early at a point where they will basically believe anything their authority figures tell them, and you have the recipe for faith as we know it. I feel like I have an OK handle on that part, I'm sure I miss some subtleties but I've been exposed to a lot more of that than a loss of faith like Queue's. What interests me is whether or not some catastrophic event is required to separate someone from a high level of irrational thought, or if simple education is enough. I've known plenty of people who I am quite are literally incapable of separating themselves from their faith, its just too big a part of who they are. What makes this type of person different than someone like my parents who could be brought up in a similar fashion and yet never latched onto religion like others. I'm doubting more and more whether this is a personal choice.

Instances where the subconscious mind chooses things that are "good for it" without the overt knowledge of the conscious mind make me call the choice idea into question. This makes me think of a woman I know who is pitiful in every sense of the word. She was poisoned for years by her husband with unnecessary medication, nearly killed when her doctor cut her aorta (or some other major artery) during surgery and he tried to cover up the symptoms she developed by "diagnosing" her with parkinsons, and generally treated pretty bad by life. She's on her last legs now (and has been for a good while), and she's very religious.

I am very, very glad she has faith. It makes me sad to think that I don't think there is anything better in store for her, but I get some small comfort that she at least believes there is. This is why I'm a lot less concerned with abolishing religion and/or faith than I am finding a way to have it coexist with our modern world and with rational thought. Its also why I don't try and make people justify their faith to me. I cant as of yet personally understand the evolutionary history for spirituality, but there is no question in my mind that this trait was selected for a reason that may or may not still be relevant.

You probably are right though that understanding the basis of faith is the best way to "combat" it, or minimize the damage it has on our culture and each other. That seems the best way to overcome any obstacle. I think neuroscience will have as much to say about that as our culture does in coming years.

Starrfall on 15/12/2008 at 02:44

Quote Posted by BEAR

This is why I'm a lot less concerned with abolishing religion and/or faith than I am finding a way to have it coexist with our modern world and with rational thought. Its also why I don't try and make people justify their faith to me. I cant as of yet personally understand the evolutionary history for spirituality, but there is no question in my mind that this trait was selected for a reason that may or may not still be relevant.

If you're interested, here are a couple of books that look at religion from an evolutionary/adaptive perspective (with bonus one-line-summary quotes):

(http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Cathedral-Evolution-Religion-Society/dp/0226901351) Darwin's Cathedral "The main purpose of this book is to treat the organismic concept of religious groups as a serious scientific hypothesis."

(http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Explained-Pascal-Boyer/dp/0465006965) Religion Explained "How could we explain a phenomenon (religion) that is so variable in terms of something (the brain) that is the same everywhere?"

BEAR on 15/12/2008 at 03:43

I might check those out, thanks (be nice to find them at the library but probably not much chance of that).

I'd almost be afraid to see what real scientists think, either a) it will turn out I'm totally wrong about everything (not really a bad outcome really), or b) I'll end up just regurgitating other peoples thoughts. At least as it is I might be full of shit but at least they are my ideas ;)

Have you read either of these? Can you suggest one over the other? I noticed C. Hitchens and Richard Dawkins both come up on "people who bought this also bought", at least there is no shortage of books on the subject to read (though Hitchens is only entertaining when he's berating people face to face, I don't actually go in for his confrontational attitude, I think its counterproductive if cathartic).

ercles on 15/12/2008 at 04:45

Dawkins is a complete tool. If you want to actually learn anything you'll have trouble getting past him frothing at the mouth at the mere mention of religion.