BlackCapedManX on 26/1/2006 at 22:26
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Did you just... not read my post on this subject? The larger any given facility, the LESS likely it will be logically organized, unless the whole thing was constructed in one fell swoop. Half-Life makes it abundantly clear that the Black Mesa facility was retrofitted and expanded in an exceptionally haphazard manner, so your assertion that it should it should be "logically created and organized" is flat-out WRONG.
Point taken, but still, crates suspended over an endless abyss? I'm not really sure how haphazard you have to build to create something that can only be traveresed if you happen to be able to jump a good 20 feet forward with 5 foot vertical leaps.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
it's like, "oh hey, this hallway is collapsed, (or this door is locked, etc.) here's a vent.
Via help from HL speed run we're going to test the validity of this theory of yours.
1.) "oh hey that door colapsed, here's an explosion in the wall to let you through"
2.)"oh hey, this hallway is blocked by a grate, thank god for this very short bit of piping beneath that I can raise the water level in"
3.)"oh hey, check out that room with the bottomless pit, I sure hope that bridge with no railings or supports will hold my weight... oh it didn't"
4.)"oh hey, check out this other bottomless pitted room, sure glad these crates are suspended over nothingness for no reason to help me get across"
5.)"oh hey, there's electricity running through this hall and the door the other way is blocked, lucky that this vent just so happens to go to a room where I can turn all that extra current off"
6.)"oh hey, door's locked, but I bet there just so happens to be a ladder hidden in the ceiling for emergencies like this"
7.)"oh hey, I can't figure out how to leave this storage room, but look, a ladder leads to some shelves that go to a vent that just so happens to be crossable when a random machine carrying crates is in the way, to a vent on the other side which just so happens to be going where I need to go"
8.)"oh hey, elevator over yet another infinite pit is out, good thing there are ladders attached to the walls that go up one floor so I can walk around to the other side on things that are so rounded that in real life I could never stand on them, where there's another ladder!"
9.)"oh hey, the halls blocked by a stack of crates so that I can't pass, good thing the stacked the crates in such a way I could easily jump from on to the next to get over them."
My point, that you are so blindly missing, is that the layout and progession is ABSURD.
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you're also forgetting (or outright ignoring, because it pokes holes in your argument) that black mesa is an old cold war facility, and as such was built without rhyme or reason, just like real military facilities
Yeah, all those real military facilities with endless pits, miles of ventilation that go between to rooms infinitely apart, random machines that serve the sole purpose of helping people enter ventilation, switches in break rooms to cut of electricity, 60 feet of sewers that don't connect to anything, but are convenient for travel... yep, all the necessary things to not get killed by nuclear missiles. Not to mention many of the places later in the game (like when you open out to the side of an infinitely high cliff) that are right next to the surface.
And yes, valve set out to make HL, and my point is that HL doesn't make a lot of sense, like the designers were confused about what to put in the game so they put whatever came to mind next, and then had ventilation to connect where you are to that next cool thing they have planned. On the other hand, when you go to battery park in NYC for the first time ever, after having played DX a dozen times over, you know your way around, because that's what the park fucking looks like, it feels like a real place in the game. My wish, my dying plea should anyone ever wish to restore my faith in the peopl who make video games is that HL could have a place, with methods of transportation that made sense, and not just rooms strung together.
And maybe that's what valve wanted, to just have a bunch of rooms floating around in empty space, like they're sitting under an infinite amount of ground and have no right being questioned, but it doesn't feel real, it doesn't give the impression of a place that could do something (much less summon fucking aliens to our planet) other than get people lost and killed. Whatever, I don't like it, in my mind things have to relate to other things and maybe I'm just obsessive, I still say the map design is illogical, and that's all I'm saying.
ZylonBane on 26/1/2006 at 23:33
And yet, that "illogical" level design earned Half-Life dozens of GOTY awards and millions in sales.
Hey, I just realized the level design in Super Mario Bros is even more illogical! Therefore it must REALLY REALLY suck!
BlackCapedManX on 27/1/2006 at 01:19
Take, for a moment, what I am actually saying into consideration. I'm not judging the gameplay, I'm not rating how fun it is, I'm not (god fucking forbid) saying it has bad MP (because that's where all the sales come from, of all of the number of people I know who play or have played HL a whole about zero of them play SP regularly, same goes for HL2), all I'm saying is that the level design is non-sensical, and the manner of progression is in a logical absurd. That's fuckin' it.
And actually, everytime I've visited a 2-dimensional kingdom of giant mushrooms, it's looked pretty much like SMB, so I'd say they're spot on.
june gloom on 27/1/2006 at 04:29
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
1.) "oh hey that door colapsed, here's an explosion in the wall to let you through"
the whole place is suffering a gigantic interstellar meltdown.
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2.)"oh hey, this hallway is blocked by a grate, thank god for this very short bit of piping beneath that I can raise the water level in"
that entire section is meant for maintenance use. and you'll note that the piping, instead of stopping dead, merely has grating in it to prevent the player from continuing.
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3.)"oh hey, check out that room with the bottomless pit, I sure hope that bridge with no railings or supports will hold my weight... oh it didn't"
age, rust, interstellar meltdown, explosions, etc.
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4.)"oh hey, check out this other bottomless pitted room, sure glad these crates are suspended over nothingness for no reason to help me get across"
that's a materials transportation system that is currently stalled.
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5.)"oh hey, there's electricity running through this hall and the door the other way is blocked, lucky that this vent just so happens to go to a room where I can turn all that extra current off"
and yet... we do the same kind of thing in deus ex, it just involves a couple of multitools.
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6.)"oh hey, door's locked, but I bet there just so happens to be a ladder hidden in the ceiling for emergencies like this"
for maintenance access.
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7.)"oh hey, I can't figure out how to leave this storage room, but look, a ladder leads to some shelves that go to a vent that just so happens to be crossable when a random machine carrying crates is in the way, to a vent on the other side which just so happens to be going where I need to go"
your point? that's kind of the idea of the game- solving movement puzzles.
fuck the rest of this, obviously you fail to grasp that the point of HL is SURREALITY superimposed on a realistic place. you keep screaming "illogical", but like you've been told several times now, much of the facility is illogical BECAUSE REAL WORLD FACILITIES ARE MUCH THE SAME WAY. your complaint about the progression is invalid, because the entire idea of the game is to throw things at you that you have to find a way around- in other words, keep you off the beaten path, or find a way to open up the path to continue. the game is centered around setpieces, not around multiple paths of progression to choose from.
if you think you're such a fucking great expert on level design, then let's see you build something.
this discussion is over- you've just got an axe to grind, and as a result you are utterly incapable of accepting someone else's answer.
BlackCapedManX on 27/1/2006 at 06:23
Quote Posted by dethtoll
the whole place is suffering a gigantic interstellar meltdown. that entire section is meant for maintenance use. and you'll note that the piping, instead of stopping dead, merely has grating in it to prevent the player from continuing. age, rust, interstellar meltdown, explosions, etc. that's a materials transportation system that is currently stalled. and yet... we do the same kind of thing in deus ex, it just involves a couple of multitools.for maintenance access. your point? that's kind of the idea of the game- solving movement puzzles.
MY POINT, that you fail to recognize, is that this is far too coincidental that all of these things should just so happen to fit exactly where they need to, and that the overall structure doesn't maintain my suspension of disbelief because this is so blatantly obvious.
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fuck the rest of this, obviously you fail to grasp that the point of HL is SURREALITY superimposed on a realistic place. you keep screaming "illogical", but like you've been told several times now, much of the facility is illogical BECAUSE REAL WORLD FACILITIES ARE MUCH THE SAME WAY.
Real world facilities have bottomless pits, 2 foot ladders stuffed in crawspaces above ceiling tiles, ventilation that connects far off rooms in an oh-so-perfect manner, but only when the hallways don't, 1 story ladders glued on alternate sides of an elevator shaft, etc? Maybe they're haphazard and illogical, but not fucking impossible.
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your complaint about the progression is invalid, because the entire idea of the game is to throw things at you that you have to find a way around- in other words, keep you off the beaten path, or find a way to open up the path to continue. the game is centered around setpieces, not around multiple paths of progression to choose from.
Fine, given, but that doesn't defeat the point that it feels far to obvious, HL2 worked in a similar manner, but didn't feel so damn contrived about it. And I bet if you asked the developers if they set out to make a game about jumping puzzles and crawlspaces they'd say "no we set out to make a game about intelligent AI with and interesting and interactive environment", which they did, but that interesting and interactive environment could have been made in a way that made it feel like I was traveling through a science facility and not an electrician/plumber's nightmare.
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if you think you're such a fucking great expert on level design, then let's see you build something.
Don't need to, (
www.blackmesasource.com) is doing it for me.
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this discussion is over- you've just got an axe to grind, and as a result you are utterly incapable of accepting someone else's answer.
Dude, you almost had me, I was about ready to say "I realize that we've both got subjective fucking opinions and we're not going to come to an agreement, but I've run out of energy to keep this going", but then you said that, and when people tell me what to do, I become even less agreeable. I've got an axe to grind because I believe in the point that Black Mesa didn't feel like a fleshed out place that could stand up to slight scrutiny, and on Black Mesa Source they read all over that they're trying to build a Black Mesa that can be experienced for the place it is, and that's all I'm fucking asking for. BM was a place, with a lot of potential to explore and show you this expansive monstrous facility with all sorts of wierd ass laboratories, and that was done to an extent, but they fuck it up by shuffeling you around in a way that makes it obvious that they're a bunch of set pieces, which takes you out of the game, which is one way that the gameplay could have been even better. There's a quote that I remember from the guy who did the camera work for Resevior Dogs, were he says "if someone tells me 'wow that was a really good camera movement' then I have failed, my goal is to make the viewer become a part of the movie by not realizing that they are looking at it through a camera". Same deal, when I go "wow, that was a really cool map idea" and not "wow, this escaping this facility is exciting" it takes me out of the game, which reduces the enjoyment of my gameplay experience. So we wait, and if this arguement lasts until BMS comes out, and if they've managed to make escaping BM an experience outside of the shuffle through ventilation, then you'll see what it is I'm argueing for. If not, then I'll concede that it can't be done and reside in my hermit hole and just not play HL.
june gloom on 27/1/2006 at 09:32
to which i give a resounding "meh." what makes you think the black mesa mod is going to do the original setpieces any different from the original game? they'll be the same setpieces- just much prettier.
and frankly, i never told you to do jackshit, except to stop being so thickheaded. you still haven't listened yet.
BlackCapedManX on 27/1/2006 at 20:05
Quote Posted by dethtoll
to which i give a resounding "meh." what makes you think the black mesa mod is going to do the original setpieces any different from the original game?
Because that's what they say in their FAQ. And I'm not being thickheaded, I'm defending my arguement, I have an opinion and you're like "shut up and agree with me" which I'm not going to do. I still think HL maps have absurd progression, I still think they could have been done better, and I'm not going to suddenly think "hmm maybe crawling through ventilation ducts
is the best way to make a player progress through a game" because you tell me it works, since for me (as maybe you might have on some subliminal level) it doesn't.
Silkworm on 27/1/2006 at 20:47
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
And yet, that "illogical" level design earned Half-Life dozens of GOTY awards and millions in sales.
Hey, I just realized the level design in Super Mario Bros is even more illogical! Therefore it must REALLY REALLY suck!
Stop trying to be difficult. Hes not saying the lack of realism makes the game unplayable of bad, he's commentaing on the SPECIFIC issue of suspension of disbeleif and the ridiculous cliches that ruined the experience for *HIM*. Its a very good point actually.
With that said, IMO Half-life was ridiculously overratted today and at the time it was released. The game has no reaplay value whatsoever, and the most cliched plot of all time. Doom3 has sold more copies than many games including deus ex and SS2 - does that have anything at all to do with wether or not its better than those games?
Because of the blind acclaim and worshipping of Half Life's game design, we have games like Doom 3, Quake 4, Fear, etc. all of which have been influenced by it and are WORSE FOR IT. I'm certain that if you took BCM's point seriously rather than slavingly defending Half Life you and dethtoll would probably agree with him.
BlackCapedManX on 27/1/2006 at 20:59
I'm not trying to dissuade you from supporting me, but you realize you're going to get shot the hell up for this too, right?
Anyway, I usually don't bring up the excessive popularity of HL (because people tend to respond "you jsut dont leik it because it are more popular than j00!") and I usually attribute it to the multiplayer (again, I know people who will wreck your ass in counter-strike, DOD, or even ricochet, who haven't even finished HL1 or HL2), but the popularity it has recieve has given rise to similarly minded games, that don't promote replayability, aren't that interesting, and are poorly planned in thier execution (hoping rather that the "stunning" action will pull you along, and damn am I stunned by that... "setpiece" as I guess you guys insist on calling it.)
KingAl on 29/1/2006 at 10:22
This is all I have to contribute:
Quote Posted by io organic industrialism
... nothing close to good fiction authors like ... dan brown.
Wah?
And no, I'm not a Christian evangelist who is deeply offended by his books. He just doesn't write well. Try ...say... Graham Greene, Jostein Gaarder or Len Deighton - just not Brown goddammit! END RANT
