BlackCapedManX on 26/1/2006 at 09:02
Quote Posted by Thirith
If you criticise HL for forcing the player to do something specific because it's linear, heck, that is exactly what a game like HL wants to do.
My criticism is basically with the genre, though earlier games like quake and doom didn't have recognizable locations, and more recent games aren't quite as bad. HL gets the brunt of it because the game is in a "real world" setting, but when you try to apply the location and the areas you travel through to real world logic you end up with a confused mess. I process 3D geometry very quickly mentally and memorize the location of things in relation to other things in a logical sense (ex: my family went on a cruise once, which had something like 20 floors, my father, who can memorize maps like nothing else, could never figure out what floor things were on, where as I could get around the whole damn boat in about 2 days). HL doesn't fit that, where the location of somethings is very haphazard in respect to others. DX only really gets this criticism in A51 where once you're underground the map just sprawls.
The whole thing can be looked at like a maze in a box, the maps in DX for the most part have a lot of extra places you can go and then go back and explore other places and then finally you get to the FINISH sign in the middle. The maps in HL get cut off wherever they don't point back toward the FINISH, and even though you may go in big ass loops, you never have the ability to relate where you are to what's next to you to where you've been, there's only forward and back. And then they remove the outside of the box anyway so it makes even less sense. I like things to have an architectural solidity to them, such that I don't feel like I'm pigeon holing my way through something because there's no other way to go.
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If you use words such as "poorly done" and "unplanned mess" when it comes to the Half-Lifes, frankly it sounds to me like you've got an axe to grind. How 'bout laying off the polemics?
I site this a lot but it's had a big effect on me, my first FPS was Rainbow 6, and I played DX and Thief before HL. So when everyone was like "Half Life is TEH BEST GAMEZ EVARSZORZ!" I had high expectations. And to me HL fell through a hole in the ground. To get an example of a what I might have hoped for, only in relation to this whole mapping thing, lets compare the structure of SS2 and HL. Sure, in SS2 the maps don't fit on top of eachother in a way that really makes sense to fit inside a ship, but on the other had it's easy to identify what floor you're on, where you've been in relation to where you're going, and have an overall broad recognition of an interior structure. In HL, imagine if, somewhere in the great archives of Valve, there was a map, of all of Black Mesa, showing where the surface is, where the different sections are, where you start, where each level is roughly in relation to all the other levels, and hell even where all of Blue Shift and Opposing Force take place. Now expand the tunnel gameplay of HL into the rest of Black Mesa, so that you could actually explore and experience what the facility was. Granted, there would be an overall "oh shit I need to escape" element, but when you find that giant furnace, your first thought is going to be "hey cool, look at this thing I can play with" and not "I bet I need to go inside it to get where I'm going. You'll note even that you have to travel on the inside of the furnace to access the areas to get the things running to turn it off. What if there was a malfunction and the furnace didn't turn off and they needed to send some one out to turn off whatever it is that you turn on in the game "well I'm sorry but I can't get there because the only way to access all of this equipment is... THROUGH THE FURNACE", it doesn't make any logical sense.
Comparison, imagine if, to get to the underwater subpen to go the the deep sea lab, that instead of raiding a base, you instead were dropped off, for whatever reason, in a cave... full of sharks, and only after swimming through the cave while avoiding mines set there for whatever reason you found a crack in ceiling of the cave, and you shot it with a shotgun and it happened to be the floor in the underwater subpen, so you go inside and as luck would have it you're behind some crates so they can't see you yet with a ventilation shaft leading all the way to the computer room which is so convenient because the doors in the room you were in were locked anyway so you unlock them and go back and kill the guys and leave. That would be DX gone HL... and stupid.
Thirith on 26/1/2006 at 11:11
I see a bit more now where you're coming from. In a way I feel sorry for you - my relative lack of 3D awareness makes it easier for me to overlook such inconsistencies, but even then only up to a point. What you write about HL I think very much applies to Jedi Knight 2; there were so many levels in that one that simply didn't make any sense. As a result I couldn't believe in the game world in any way. I guess it's always a fine balance: Personally I do believe that certain types of gameplay are improved by fiddling with the relative realism of the design (frankly, when I play HL, I wouldn't want the openness of DX or Thief level design, just as I wouldn't want the vice versa), yet if they're fiddled with too much it becomes difficult to maintain one's suspension of disbelief.
HL finds a good balance for me, but I see how it fails to do so for you. I'd fully agree, by the way, that HL is more shallow than DX - but I don't always want depth. I do have my limits as far as shallowness is concerned, but for me the Half-Lifes are Aliens or Die Hard 1 shallow, not Michael Bay shallow. ;)
june gloom on 26/1/2006 at 11:17
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
For the last time, they both have maps, Not orangey and appley maps, both have 3d maps that you progress through, and in one game the maps make sense, in the other it's an almost unplanned mess of "hey how do we incorporate this cool thing?" "duh, by forcing the player to move through it" "by why is it here?" "Dude, are you paying attention, to force the player to move through it". Your fruit arguement is the point I am making, the difference that you seem to think makes these things unrelated is precisely the difference that makes one less coherent than the other.
for the last time: DEUS EX AND HALF-LIFE ARE VERY DIFFERENT GAMES. the focus of deus ex is ADVENTURE AND EXPLORATION. the focus of half-life is ESCAPE AND PROGRESS. stop being so damned thick in the head, and stop being polemic concerning HL. so you didn't like the game, fine. but that is not relevant to the quality of the maps themselves.
this whole argument totally got way off the point i was originally trying to make: the deus ex maps, particularly in hell's kitchen, are illogically built: the interior maps are sometimes larger than their exteriors, and it's immediately obvious. this is likely as a result of the rather haphazard development process where one group made one map, and another group made a different map- without checking to see if one correlated with the other in more than a superficial way (say, the front doors of the 'ton)
i'm starting to see why ZB's such a miserable bastard sometimes.
Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 26/1/2006 at 11:39
You know, while the bar/ton maps may be bigger than their external settings, they're not THAT much bigger. The 'ton uses much of the external geometry work itself, to make the view from Pauls window.
I too am one of these people who doesn't instantly notice minor geographical inaccuracies. With buildings like versalife, my thought was not "OMFG this map is in totally the wrong place", it was "WOW! Nice view..hey: that's tonnochi road! That's great!" -the idea of having a recognizable location viewable from another map pulls the whole thing together for me, rather than skewing it entirely unless it gets it perfect.
Qaladar on 26/1/2006 at 12:32
Quote Posted by TheNightTerror
You haven't played through the Rickenbacker in a while, have you? ;) Can't say I blame you. :eww: For specific locations, in Pod 1,
after you've reached the upperish hallways where you can go to Nacelle A, B, and Pod 2, head to Nacelle B. When you approach a ladder which leads down to the QBRM, a cyborg assassin, and a black egg on a ledge, directly on your left will be a turret tucked into a dark corner.
After you go down the ladder, pass the QBRM and look for a doorway to your right. Another turret will be guarding a room there. When you enter the nacelle itself, if you jump straight down to the lower level, you'll also encounter a ceiling turret at the end of the long, dark hallway.
I don't remember exact directions to get to the last one I remember at the moment, (I haven't slept in a day and can't be bothered to load SS2) but there's a longish hallway guarded by a missile turret. There's a hallway off to the left of that; it's also guarded by a ceiling turret, a camera, and in the same room is one of the black eggs.Okay, okay, I know I'm being horribly picky, but I wanted you to be able to find at least one. :cheeky: Assuming my overtired directions even help, that is. :erm:
Those are a different kind of turret (the sort of gun on a stick ones)... I'm talking about the squat cylinder shaped ones.
Hrmm now that I think about it... maybe there aren't any of those in pod 2.
OK maybe it was a bad example... still... take a long look at pod 2. Imagine it right side up and you'll find that some of it would a bit impractical for getting around in.
june gloom on 26/1/2006 at 12:44
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
You know, while the bar/ton maps may be bigger than their external settings, they're not THAT much bigger.
you know that hallway between the front doors and the lobby? it stretches past the boundaries of the actual exterior wall- and really, the ATM/bulletin machine are closer to where the bar's exterior wall is.
the main hell's kitchen map should be at least 50% bigger to accomodate the two biggest landmarks.
i'm not sure if the free clinic overlaps with the map or not. it might not; and if it does, it's not all that noticable, like the 'ton and bar are.
one other thing i noticed; the window on the exterior of the 'ton is on the wrong side.
ZylonBane on 26/1/2006 at 14:27
Nanites did it.
BlackCapedManX on 26/1/2006 at 19:02
Quote Posted by dethtoll
for the last time: DEUS EX AND HALF-LIFE ARE VERY DIFFERENT GAMES. the focus of deus ex is ADVENTURE AND EXPLORATION. the focus of half-life is ESCAPE AND PROGRESS. stop being so damned thick in the head, and stop being polemic concerning HL. so you didn't like the game, fine. but that is not relevant to the quality of the maps themselves.
I'm talking about two things, neither of which you happen to be absorbing in any sense. The first of which is the ESCAPE AND PROGRESS genre of FPS that I am complaining about. Take FEAR for example, where throughout nearly the entire game your objective is "Kill Paxton Fettle" who always happens to be just around the corner in the dirrection that you're heading. And even after being blown out of a window, falling down a huge ventilation shaft, getting stuck on elevators, etc, you're always exactly where you need to be to continue on with your adventure, and when you're not, they send a helicopter to make sure you are. And even then, your helicopter will get shot down and you'll be in just the place you need to be to get to where you need to go. FEAR had an excuse for it though in that there were "strange and ominous psychic phenonmena" going on. HL doesn't have that excuse. HL happens in what should be a logically created and organized scientific facility, yet your main mode of transportation is usually through vents, by raising water levels, over endless pits, jumping puzzles, and other totally illogical ways of getting around leaving me going "What? What kind of idiot contracted this place?" Right now I'm not relating it to DX, I'm using DX as an example of how it could be, because in DX the game proceeds in a linear fashion. If I were comparing HL to R6 I could see your arguement, because after each mission in R6 you go back to HQ and are transported to a totally different place. But the mode of map progression in HL is linear, allowing you to move forward to new maps when you have accomplished what you need in the ones you're in. It's the same way in DX. I'm not talking about genre, plot, openness, whatever, I'm talking about the progression of maps, and how the route you take in HL and games similar to it is often illogical and stupid.
The second point I'm making is about the structure of the maps. Not only does the progress of the maps in HL not make sense, but the architecture of it does not help to maintain my suspension of disbelief because (as I've been saying over and over and you haven't been addressing) there's no logical way to relate where you are to other places in what should be the same damn complex. It's like shoving a string into a block of gelatin, taking it's 3D shape and saying "that's the route they're going to take" "but sir, no building can be erected like that" "doesn't matter, that's the route they're going to take." I want to be able to know why the building I'm in stands, not just how long the hallway I'm in is. Again this is argued in isolation of DX, I think it's stupid the way the maps are linked in a way that's supposed to travel through a giant complex, all on it's own. I only site DX because this is a DX forum and DX has done a good job of displaying how to make maps that maintain my suspension of disbelief.
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this whole argument totally got way off the point i was originally trying to make: the deus ex maps, particularly in hell's kitchen, are illogically built: the interior maps are sometimes larger than their exteriors, and it's immediately obvious. this is likely as a result of the rather haphazard development process where one group made one map, and another group made a different map- without checking to see if one correlated with the other in more than a superficial way (say, the front doors of the 'ton)
I'd never noticed, if it bothered me enough, I would have checked in unrealed. When I think about it, the window out of paul's room should be on the back of the building, whatever, I've played the game a dozen times and it never bothered me. If, on the hand, the toilet in Paul's room opened into a subteranian network of bomb shelters (while still on the second story), it would have bothered me, but it didn't, so I wasn't.
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i'm starting to see why ZB's such a miserable bastard sometimes.
Since I've been back I haven't noticed it quite as much from him lately. Which I'm fond of because he usually has intelligent things to say when he's not being a miserable bastard. Then again, maybe I haven't provoked him enough recently.
ZylonBane on 26/1/2006 at 19:50
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
HL happens in what should be a logically created and organized scientific facility
Did you just... not read my post on this subject? The larger any given facility, the LESS likely it will be logically organized, unless the whole thing was constructed in one fell swoop. Half-Life makes it abundantly clear that the Black Mesa facility was retrofitted and expanded in an exceptionally haphazard manner, so your assertion that it should it should be "logically created and organized" is flat-out WRONG.
june gloom on 26/1/2006 at 20:16
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
blahblah deus ex blahblah FEAR blahblah HL doesn't make sense blahblah
you obviously seem to have a problem with the way 90% of FPS games tend to play out- and i'm the first to admit that HL plays in a similar way to most other FPS. but you obviously haven't played HL in a while- all that vent-fu in HL took place for a reason. it's like, "oh hey, this hallway is collapsed, (or this door is locked, etc.) here's a vent." it's not like, "oh hey, this hallway goes nowhere, here's a vent." you're going where you're going for a REASON. you're also forgetting (or outright ignoring, because it pokes holes in your argument) that black mesa is an old cold war facility, and as such was built without rhyme or reason, just like real military facilities that served a similar purpouse: missiles. NOT TO MENTION most of the facility is UNDERGROUND.
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
Right now I'm not relating it to DX, I'm using DX as an example of how it could be
i'm not seeing much of a difference there, the way you've been putting it. and once again, you're totally missing the point here: valve didn't set out to make deus ex. they set out to make half-life. A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STYLE OF FIRST PERSON GAME. god, you're denser than basalt. are you high or just stupid?
