ZylonBane on 25/1/2006 at 22:27
The reason I even mentioned HL1's layout is because all its various mini-maps CANNOT be joined together. I believe even the opening tram ride segments, if joined, would result in the several overlaps.
BlackCapedManX on 25/1/2006 at 22:29
I'm not comparing apples to oranges, I'm comparing DX to a good number of other shooter games, and most of them have linear paths that take very obscure and illogical routes to get from point a to the end of the game, which just so happens to be exactly where you're going.
Quote Posted by Ron White
So he says "How far do you think we can get on just one engine?!" "About all the way to the scene of the crash. Which is fortunate, because that's where we're headed. Hell I bet we beat the ambulance by a good half-hour."
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
The reason I even mentioned HL1's layout is because all its various mini-maps CANNOT be joined together. I believe even the opening tram ride segments, if joined, would result in the several overlaps.
That's also part of what I mean, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, you can't actually place yourself in any relation to where you've been or where you're going.
june gloom on 25/1/2006 at 22:35
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
I'm not comparing apples to oranges, I'm comparing DX to a good number of other shooter games
APPLES AND ORANGES.
Silkworm on 25/1/2006 at 22:49
Actually, in real life it happens all the time that similar or even identical blueprints and floorplans are used for different buildings only blocks apart. Particularly in rapidly built suburban areas but also urban areas you can often walk into two houses only a block away and feel deja vu.
So in fact what the developers of deus ex did was smart and realistic.
I also felt Half Life's level design was overrated. Actually, Deus Ex puts most FPS level design to shame.
To say Deus Ex has "unrealistic" level design is only true if youve never played any other FPS ever and have nothing to compare it too. The only game that comes even remotely close to consistency, logic and beleivability would be System Schock 2. Yes every game has tiny logical flaws and there are small compass bugs but no other game has level design as good as Deus Ex.
Qaladar on 25/1/2006 at 23:27
System Shock 2 has some pretty bizarre "unrealistic" level architecture as well... especially on the Rickenbacker. I think thats partly due to the developers being a bit rushed towards the end of the game though.
For example, pod 2 (the one with reversed gravity) is upside down... yet turrets appear on the floor. This means they're actually on the ceiling but nowhere in the game does that type of turret appear on the ceiling.
BlackCapedManX on 26/1/2006 at 02:27
Quote Posted by dethtoll
APPLES AND ORANGES.
Lets see, DX is a game where you play from a first person perspective with 3D designed maps where throughout the course of the game you travel from the starting point to the end in a linear fashion (as in, you can't choose to go entirely different dirrections in the course of the game.)
Half Life is a game where you play from a first person perspective with 3D designed maps where throughout the course of the game you travel from the starting point to the end in a linear fashion.
And I argue that Deus Ex accomplishes this in a much more logical fashion. If you're going to go on talking about your fucking fruit, go ahead, but I'm going to attempt to maintain converstation pertinent to the progression of this thread.
Quote Posted by Silkworm
Actually, in real life it happens all the time that similar or even identical blueprints and floorplans are used for different buildings only blocks apart. Particularly in rapidly built suburban areas but also urban areas you can often walk into two houses only a block away and feel deja vu.
Well fine (I know the suburbia bit, it frightens me), I was just saying that it was a bit confusing (I got over it, I was just that way to begin with.)
TheNightTerror on 26/1/2006 at 07:09
Quote Posted by Qaladar
For example, pod 2 (the one with reversed gravity) is upside down... yet turrets appear on the floor. This means they're actually on the ceiling but nowhere in the game does that type of turret appear on the ceiling.
You haven't played through the Rickenbacker in a while, have you? ;) Can't say I blame you. :eww: For specific locations, in Pod 1,
after you've reached the upperish hallways where you can go to Nacelle A, B, and Pod 2, head to Nacelle B. When you approach a ladder which leads down to the QBRM, a cyborg assassin, and a black egg on a ledge, directly on your left will be a turret tucked into a dark corner.
After you go down the ladder, pass the QBRM and look for a doorway to your right. Another turret will be guarding a room there. When you enter the nacelle itself, if you jump straight down to the lower level, you'll also encounter a ceiling turret at the end of the long, dark hallway.
I don't remember exact directions to get to the last one I remember at the moment, (I haven't slept in a day and can't be bothered to load SS2) but there's a longish hallway guarded by a missile turret. There's a hallway off to the left of that; it's also guarded by a ceiling turret, a camera, and in the same room is one of the black eggs.Okay, okay, I know I'm being horribly picky, but I wanted you to be able to find at least one. :cheeky: Assuming my overtired directions even help, that is. :erm:
june gloom on 26/1/2006 at 07:19
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
Lets see, DX is a game where you play from a first person perspective with 3D designed maps where throughout the course of the game you travel from the starting point to the end in a linear fashion (as in, you can't choose to go entirely different dirrections in the course of the game.)
Half Life is a game where you play from a first person perspective with 3D designed maps where throughout the course of the game you travel from the starting point to the end in a linear fashion.
that's a faulty argument. that's like saying doom and system shock are the exact same kind of game. they're obviously not. otherwise we'd all be posting over at doomworld and system shock would rot in obscurity. YES, half-life and deus ex are first person, but the comparison ends there. deus ex is linear, yes- but only to keep the story straight. but when you're on a given mission, you can go around, talk to people, sneak into places, whathaveyou- you can spend an hour's worth of time just doing stuff before actually getting to where you're supposed to go. half-life, on the other hand, is a straightforward run, where the story is only given to you in bits and pieces, with most maps centered around a given "setpiece" or objective to complete (example: turn on the rocket engine to destroy the tentacles, which involves going to 2 separate maps to activate the fuel and oxygen lines as well as turning on the generator.)
to reiterate:
Inline Image:
http://home.graffiti.net/dethtoll/apples.jpg != Inline Image:
http://home.graffiti.net/dethtoll/oranges.jpgQuote Posted by Silkworm
To say Deus Ex has "unrealistic" level design is only true if youve never played any other FPS ever and have nothing to compare it too. The only game that comes even remotely close to consistency, logic and beleivability would be System Schock 2. Yes every game has tiny logical flaws and there are small compass bugs but no other game has level design as good as Deus Ex.
never played half-life 2, have you? or hell, almost any game in a real-world setting made after deus ex.
i never said DX had "unrealistic" design. i mean, clearly the maps show what they're supposed to be. i also never said they were BAD maps- i have fun in them. what i am saying, and what you geniuses seem to have missed, is that the level design was obviously uncoordinated, especially in hell's kitchen. to reiterate: the interiors of the hotel and bar were far larger than their exteriors. don't believe me? check it out for yourselves. bring the hell's kitchen map and the bar map up in a map editor and compare the bar's building to the interior bar map.
jesus christ.
BlackCapedManX on 26/1/2006 at 08:04
Quote Posted by dethtoll
that's a faulty argument. that's like saying doom and system shock are the exact same kind of game. they're obviously not.
But they both have maps, and one can have maps that make a lot more sense than a bunch of boxes that are connected to each other.
Quote:
you can go around, talk to people, sneak into places, whathaveyou- you can spend an hour's worth of time just doing stuff before actually getting to where you're supposed to go. half-life, on the other hand, is a straightforward run, where the story is only given to you in bits and pieces, with most maps centered around a given "setpiece" or objective to complete
Again, HLs execution of this is poorly done, because everything just happens to be exactly where it needs to be. Sure you have maps to go between to burn the tentacles and get on with the game, but why is it that you need to go underneath tentacles that happen to be in a giant furnace to get further on anyway? Why is it that your path just so happens to go through this really big flaming room? Because the programers could find a way to incorporate such "cool" things into the game without FORCING you to use them. In HL2 you
have to use the crane to move the bridge, why? Because the map is built such that all of these obscure and and fun things are only there to exactly progress the mission. How often is there just a crane, or just a giant furnace that you can lure enemies into? Not that often because they couldn't be bothered to incorporate these things into the game in a subtle way that used them to advance the gameplay instead of be the reason for it.
For the last time, they both have maps, Not orangey and appley maps, both have 3d maps that you progress through, and in one game the maps make sense, in the other it's an almost unplanned mess of "hey how do we incorporate this cool thing?" "duh, by forcing the player to move through it" "by why is it here?" "Dude, are you paying attention, to force the player to move through it". Your fruit arguement is the point I am making, the difference that you seem to think makes these things unrelated is precisely the difference that makes one less coherent than the other.
Thirith on 26/1/2006 at 08:24
I agree with you that DX and HL can be compared, but I completely disagree with you that the HL maps are done poorly. Yes, they can be criticised, as can the DX maps - but they fulfill their function very, very well indeed. If you criticise HL for forcing the player to do something specific because it's linear, heck, that is exactly what a game like HL wants to do. The focused set-piece type of action that the Half-Life games have done extremely well IMO is much less possible to do with the same kind of focus if you forgo linearity.
What made the HL maps work for me was that they didn't give me a chance to think: "Why is this here?" I thought that in themselves, the levels made sense - perhaps they don't hold up to the same scrutiny as DX, but even there I'm sure you could come up with questions such as "Why do they have these dangerous barrels there? And why is this ventilation shaft built here?"
If you use words such as "poorly done" and "unplanned mess" when it comes to the Half-Lifes, frankly it sounds to me like you've got an axe to grind. How 'bout laying off the polemics?
