Pyrian on 7/1/2017 at 19:45
Quote Posted by SubJeff
The biggest load of bs itt is this dumb suggestion that you need a woman's opinion on it, like male brains are just unable to recognise sexism.
Quote Posted by faetal
Who said that?
Heck, I'll say it. It's not "like male brains are just unable", it's like "human brains can be biased". It's not that you
can't possibly get the whole story by only hearing one side, it's just less likely.
Tocky on 7/1/2017 at 19:55
Quote Posted by Thirith
As I said: strawmanning. You're saying that Vivian isn't saying what he says, he's actually saying something else. You're putting words in his mouth in order to attack them. That's pretty much textbook strawman. Since you then go on to say that Vivian and me are friends, when it's actually a matter of us agreeing (I don't know why you'd consider us friends, since I've not had more or less interaction with him than with most other people on the boards), I don't think you are interested in having a discussion in good faith. Which means that I have better things to waste my time on.
This response makes no sense on it's face. I've explained in detail how I made no strawman. It just seems that since you ignore everything I say and take a side which has and continues to use personal attacks such as "meltdown" you must be friends. That is the only thing which makes sense. My reductive was only to the point of reducing to the essence and a little absurdness as humor. That is not what a strawman is.
And I have not said he is saying something he hasn't said. I never said HE said the boner thing. I said it. YOU are not having a discussion in good faith if you ignore my response. STATE a strawman. I will show you where you are wrong. I already have but you ignore it to concentrate on my boner.
Vivian on 7/1/2017 at 19:57
Bronze Bikini Combo is the name of my all-male riot grrrrl ally band.
nickie on 7/1/2017 at 20:01
I think you're all doing fine without my input, at least. I always find you guys encouraging when I'm most despairing with the world. In the old days, men would say 'Sexism? What's that?'
For the record, I had different feelings about the Ripley clip and the Leia image. The first made me uncomfortable in a couple of places (though I don't remember feeling that when I first saw the film), the 2nd made me cross (though I also don't remember feeling that when I first saw the film). My 'enlightenment' came after both films had been released. It's likely that seeing adverts for 'Princess Leia sexy slave costume' is what pisses me off. For Ripley there is only discussion relating to the film.
Things hit me on an intellectual level or a visceral level. I couldn't define what does what. IMO, it's all a whole heap better than I grew up with.
Edit. About the Maybelline advert. I only threw that in there because I've noticed that occasionally, when threads are split, conversation dries up so just wanted to post something else to talk about in case the original posters stopped posting. As it happens, I've been quite pleased to read that there are one or two 'celebrities' who seem to have decided to stop wearing make up. I hope it's an increasing trend for women. But I was interested in the replies so thank you for that. As for the advert, I didn't see it as goth or anime or anything other than 'feminine' make-up on a man.
faetal on 7/1/2017 at 20:45
Quote Posted by Vivian
I think I said if in doubt, ask a girl. Seems sensible?
I think it makes a lot more sense than assuming men have a 1:1 awareness versus women on sexism. I can't speak for anyone else, but I lose track of the number of things which I've only realised were sexist after my attention was drawn to it. Else it's easy enough to coast through life assuming that everything is just dandy.
Tocky on 7/1/2017 at 20:51
Quote Posted by nickie
For the record, I had different feelings about the Ripley clip and the Leia image. The first made me uncomfortable in a couple of places (though I don't remember feeling that when I first saw the film), the 2nd made me cross (though I also don't remember feeling that when I first saw the film). My 'enlightenment' came after both films had been released. It's likely that seeing adverts for 'Princess Leia sexy slave costume' is what pisses me off. For Ripley there is only discussion relating to the film.
Things hit me on an intellectual level or a visceral level. I couldn't define what does what. IMO, it's all a whole heap better than I grew up with.
It may be possible that the reason you were not offended originally is because seeing the whole thing together puts it in context. That is the way it is for me. That and knowing the allegory of a woman breaking free of chains. Adverts for a sexy Leia costume I understand feeling pissed about. That takes it out of context and exploits.
There were many sexually exploitive films from the fifties on through to the worst era being late sixties and early seventies. Many wince worthy there. Star Wars was one where there was a strong female lead and one which led us out of that era. Part of why I defend it so strongly.
SubJeff on 7/1/2017 at 21:25
Quote Posted by Sulphur
You're welcome to your opinion on how women are portrayed, Subj, but if you feel that inviting women to talk about a topic that relates to them is fundamentally about men not being able to 'recognise' sexism, maybe take a moment to think before posting.
I don't think it's "fundamentally" about men not being able to recognise sexism.
I do think when someone says:
Quote Posted by Vivian
in general if you want to know if something is sexist ask a girl.
they are definitely suggesting that the female opinion has some gravitas to it that the male opinion hasn't.
I agree with Vivian on most other things itt. However, I think Ripley's underwear scene was just par for the course in getting ready for sleep and, importantly, let her get into the spacesuit with greater ease, which may have simply been a practical thing for filming. Imagine her still in her being in the overalls - it'd be awkward. Anyway, my wife says it's not sexist so...
Vivian on 7/1/2017 at 22:14
Maybe your wife is the real sexist here.
Anyways yeah, fair point, the ability to recognise sexism isn't a gendered thing. I was more thinking along the lines of, if a man says some depiction of a woman isn't dodgy, and a woman says it is, I'd be more inclined to go with the womans opinion of it. Which is, yeah, giving their opinion special status I guess. But I still think it makes sense.
faetal on 7/1/2017 at 22:19
I think some nuances are being missed. Men can recognise sexism, but on the whole, men in general are probably less likely to understand the extent of sexism compared with women in general.
Two overlapping bell curves etc...
Notably, the point at which men might reach the consensus where sexism isn't an issue could be expected to fall short of the female equivalent.
SubJeff on 8/1/2017 at 08:05
Quote Posted by Vivian
Which is, yeah, giving their opinion special status I guess. But I still think it makes sense.
I don't buy it.
It's not logical. If something is sexist it is objectively sexist and you can deduce that with logic and sense. Women will disagree with each other over what is sexist too so what then?
None of this is to say that women shouldn't be involved in this debate. I agree that a woman's perspective may alter my own opinion on whether something is sexist or not, and that it might be because of something I haven't realised/didn't see because I'm male. But that still only adds to the logic pot.
Quote Posted by faetal
I think some nuances are being missed. Men can recognise sexism, but on the whole, men in general are probably less likely to understand the extent of sexism compared with women in general.
Two overlapping bell curves etc...
Notably, the point at which men might reach the consensus where sexism isn't an issue could be expected to fall short of the female equivalent.
Yeah, on the lines of this.
It's like any -ism. The group being prejudiced against is more likely to pick it up but if they can't explain why something is prejudiced then it isn't.
