Nicker on 7/1/2017 at 16:23
Exactly, SJ. And after a lifetime spent avoiding them, middle age is the worst time to get cooties.
Vivian on 7/1/2017 at 16:57
It's more that women are more likely to notice it, I guess?
Tocky on 7/1/2017 at 17:18
Quote Posted by Thirith
All of this is strawmanning, pure and simple. Vivian criticised, he never said a) he was offended, b) any depiction of bodies was offensive, c) he wanted stories to be altered. Then there's your silly, reductive bit about boners.
It's absolutely fair to disagree with Vivian's argument, but from the first you've been misunderstanding and misrepresenting. It's not Vivian's position that's counter to actual discussiion, it's yours, which reads all criticism as offense and as attempts to censor. That's basically libertarian for "Nah nah nah, I can't hear you, I've got my fingers stuck in my ears!" You have some points with respect to context, but even those are limited, mainly because something can be justified on one level (say, plot) and still iffy on another (you can easily make a woman empowered and still have the camera leering all over her) - and regardless of this, saying that something is iffy != saying that it should be prohibited or censored or "Will no one think of the children?!"
First off you are correct about the boner thing being reductive. It was meant to be. It goes through all the surrounding meat to the bone. It shakes away the chaff and gets to what we are really talking about. Second I am bombastic certainly. I enjoy being so. I'm sorry you have a problem parsing that and take things I say in the most pejorative sense because it makes you miss my points.
What I said to Vivian I did not pull out of thin air. Sexism- true sexism- is an offense and should be to both men and women. To claim something is sexist is to automatically take up the banner of offense. Sexism IS an offense. Vivian began by claiming it. I disagreed. Too vehemently for him or you apparently as it brought personal attacks not related to the topic. He still goads me by calling my words a meltdown. It's nice you two are friends but both he and you have a blind spot when it comes to his arguments.
He was saying that the ratio of skin exposure should be the same. How can you miss that? He even reiterated it in a subsequent post. That is not a straw man. If you cut into a story (a censorship) to make sure this much skin is reciprocated for that much then there is the very real possibility it will damage the story which should be paramount and a good example is Alien as evidenced by the above discussion. Perhaps (and I'm throwing you a bone here) I could have directed my rant (not a meltdown) even more at the over swing of society's pendulum but he certainly seemed to be taking up the banner of that as well. I was not the one who claimed a bikini in Star Wars was sexist and missed the point of the scene. I was the one who brought that up. EDIT- actually Kolya brought it up and I expanded on it.
As for the libertarian comment and will no one think of the children, that's obvious rubbish and I think you know it. If it isn't to you then it certainly will be to others and you should consider that. Now why don't we stick to actual discussion instead of YOUR strawman? Too much discussion has been paid to personal back and forth.
faetal on 7/1/2017 at 17:22
Quote Posted by SubJeff
The biggest load of bs itt is this dumb suggestion that you need a woman's opinion on it, like male brains are just unable to recognise sexism.
Who said that?
Vivian on 7/1/2017 at 18:45
I think I said if in doubt, ask a girl. Seems sensible?
Thirith on 7/1/2017 at 19:07
Quote Posted by Tocky
First off you are correct about the boner thing being reductive. It was meant to be. It goes through all the surrounding meat to the bone. It shakes away the chaff and gets to what we are really talking about.
As I said: strawmanning. You're saying that Vivian isn't saying what he says, he's actually saying something else. You're putting words in his mouth in order to attack them. That's pretty much textbook strawman. Since you then go on to say that Vivian and me are friends, when it's actually a matter of us agreeing (I don't know why you'd consider us friends, since I've not had more or less interaction with him than with most other people on the boards), I don't think you are interested in having a discussion in good faith. Which means that I have better things to waste my time on.
Briareos H on 7/1/2017 at 19:09
I think there should be more movies with scenes that serve no purpose beyond titillating women.
Vivian on 7/1/2017 at 19:30
We can be friends if you like, Thirith.
Thirith on 7/1/2017 at 19:41
Shush, you.
*puts a finger on Vivian's lips*
*knees him in the groin*
*walks away in bizarre bronze bikini combo*
Sulphur on 7/1/2017 at 19:43
You're welcome to your opinion on how women are portrayed, Subj, but if you feel that inviting women to talk about a topic that relates to them is fundamentally about men not being able to 'recognise' sexism, maybe take a moment to think before posting.
