Kolya on 5/1/2017 at 00:29
A colour blind person can understand what rainbow text is despite not being able to experience it. And you wouldn't exclude them from a discussion about it, would you?
A man can actually experience sexism.
Tocky on 5/1/2017 at 01:30
Quote Posted by Vivian
It's not oversensitive man, it's what women think about it. I am repeating what women say and have said to me about stuff like this. You can call em feminists if you like, but really you're just talking about women. Even westworld, which I thought did a good job of having women in strong roles etc - I was talking to gf and other female mates about it, and they said 'yeah, but they also get raped a lot, and they have to look hot all the time'. It contributes to the idea that women should be judged on their appearance, no matter what else they are also judged on. It's not that she wasn't a decent female character, but that she was the ONLY female character, and no matter what else they did they spent screentime pointing out how hot she looked in her underwear. That's the problem for most women I know, who would mostly like to get on with their lives without having to worry about how attractive they look all the fucking time, and I don't feel like I have any right to tell them they're wrong, because that shit is very much their call. Does that make sense?
Fair point about the 80s though.
Hang on, are you referring to me when you say 'oversensitive weenies'?
LOL no. I don't know you well enough to know. But if you were the sort who took offense at Steve Martins tribute where he included beautiful in his description along with smart and other adjectives then yes. I consider myself a feminist. I take note of Trump when he only seems to value women for their looks. BUT neither women nor men are above sexual attraction and if they are then they are anomalies.
The bikini thing? What was that the third one? Lasted a few minutes? That was about her humiliation. Or her attempted humiliation I should say. She wasn't. It failed. She killed him. Pretty easy to follow. It was a win for feminism. You may have over sensitive weenie female mates. Do they also decry the bare chested Conan movies?
Vivian on 5/1/2017 at 08:09
Im not sure you have much grounds to call anyone oversensitive, Mr paint fumes. How is your mum anyway?
If the vast majority of male characters in films were bare chested Conans there might have been an issue, yeah. But there is a good balance of male characters, and for every one that has their physical attractiveness emphasised there are a dozen who are valued for their strength, wisdom, pool ability, whatever, and their appearance isn't even mentioned. There was and still is a lack of that for girls.
Tocky on 5/1/2017 at 16:37
My mom is hanging on. She has had strokes, heart disease, chrones disease, and other maladies but she is tough. I fear this may be the year as she has a lot of trouble getting around now. It worries me greatly.
You can take things too far is all I'm saying. Some people don't seem to realize that. Most movies are a fair reflection of society or a particular time and if we start measuring how much of this or that we include the story suffers. Attractiveness has been a thing in movies for both male and female since the start of them. I've seen abuses but if we start seeing one in every hedgerow then it diminishes the real ones.
Thirith on 5/1/2017 at 16:41
What people don't seem to realise (or perhaps are unable to handle) is this: you can like something, even love it, and still be critical of some of its elements. That's not betrayal, it's not hypocritical. People think that if you criticise something beloved, you're shitting on it - but how much do you actually love something if you can't accept that someone might criticise aspects of it?
Vivian on 5/1/2017 at 16:58
I think Jyn in the Rogue One is a nice example of progress in this stuff. Yes she's played by a very attractive person (as is everyone), but she's not sexualised in-movie, i.e. her attractiveness isn't made a point of, other characters don't go 'ooh wow she's gorgeous', and there isn't a contrived reason for her to run around in her underwear at some point. She's just there to do stuff. The ghostbusters remake, for all of it's mediocrity in other areas, also did a nice job of unfussily having female characters just being people. I guess it's equivalent to Night of the Living Dead having a black protagonist without making him talk jive or dance or anything?
faetal on 5/1/2017 at 18:14
Quote Posted by Kolya
And there exist actual facts to prove it instead of the lazy circular arguments that you require.
Not sure what you are getting at here. You suggesting that any observation which doesn't come with graphs is somehow laziness rather than contextual?
Tocky on 5/1/2017 at 20:05
Quote Posted by Thirith
What people don't seem to realise (or perhaps are unable to handle) is this: you can like something, even love it, and still be critical of some of its elements. That's not betrayal, it's not hypocritical. People think that if you criticise something beloved, you're shitting on it - but how much do you actually love something if you can't accept that someone might criticise aspects of it?
You might have a valid point if it were in any way based on fact. I'll give you mine. Contrary to what has been stated Leia did not run around in her underwear. There was one scene in a bikini where she not only held her dignity against attempted debasement but killed the one doing it. She was not saved by the men. She did it her self and promptly went back to wearing a bed sheet coverall type thing. Do you have any factual knowledge to support Star Wars as sexist? I will be happy to listen to actual fact but merely stating it was by totally missing the import of one scene does not do it. Moreover missing the import of that scene does a disservice to the very cause you think you are championing.
Wait. Are people conflating Barbarella with Star Wars?
Vivian on 5/1/2017 at 21:17
No one said Leia ran around in her underwear, I said Jyn didn't. Slave-girl Leia was massively male-gaze, and in that, yeah, kinda sexist. It doesn't make the whole thing sexist (it would be hard really, there's only one woman in the whole thing), but if Leia is a feminist character, it's only by the low standards of the time period.
Besides, whatever Koyla is getting at with going on about color blind people loving rainbows, in general if you want to know if something is sexist ask a girl. Gimme a minute...
Yeah, that bit was sexist.
Tocky on 6/1/2017 at 00:22
I see. If you pop a boner it's sexist. It matters not the context or that the woman is a strong wisecracking character capable of saving the men. So Alien is not sexist because, although she was in her underwear, it was in context and I did not pop a pants tent. Oh wait I didn't pop one with the slave girl scene either so I guess it's just sexist for you.
And Star Wars had the same ratio of male to female as Harry Potter. Is Rowling sexist?
