Vivian on 11/1/2017 at 16:46
Quote Posted by Brethren
Not trying to be argumentative, but I think the point was whether the sexist slave outfit in particular was definitive of her role in SW. No one is saying the white robe outfit is offensive in any way.
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's one of two costumes Leia is known for. Is that not fairly definitive?
Vivian on 11/1/2017 at 17:05
Quote Posted by Fingernail
So even if Sting were naked (and what an image), what that represents is not the same as it would be were he a woman.
Fair point. I was just thinking it would be a nice gesture of good faith to also put at least one prominent male cast member in stupid space-knickers.
heywood on 11/1/2017 at 17:22
If male nudity had the same sales appeal to female viewers as female nudity has to male viewers, you would see a lot more of it.
Always, I don't think sex appeal in film is inherently a problem. But when it is used gratuitously as a sales booster for no real artistic purpose then I find it to be in bad taste. I just don't see what purpose it serves to show Leia that way. The suggestion is that she is a sex slave, but perhaps she is not really a sex slave and Jabba is just doing it to humiliate her. Either way, I don't see how it adds anything to the story. It strikes me as being a marketing decision not an artistic decision. And I can tell you that as a boy who hit puberty right about when RotJ came out, I know first hand that costume helped sell tickets and video rentals.
Same with Alien. If the writer wanted to end the film with one last scare as Ripley is prepping for cryo sleep, fine. If they wanted to show Ripley in a partial state of undress to heighten the sense of vulnerability, that's OK too. But the choice of underwear and the way they made her wear it, with panties falling down, and the camera angles, and how they slow panned over her body and lingered at her crotch, it's all just gratuitous.
These films were from an era of cinema where it was extremely common to throw a brief bit of nudity or simulated sex into a film for no other reason than marketing. Halloween did it. Friday the 13th did it. Even The Shining did it. It was practically expected in a horror movie around the time Alien was released. Other flicks from the same era relied on it as the primary selling point for an otherwise shit film. Otherwise who would have gone to see The Blue Lagoon, or Fast Times at Ridgemont High, or Porky's.
It still happens today, but to a lesser degree because of porn. These movies were made when there was no internet porn, before video porn was big, before Cinemax started showing softcore porn flicks, when teenage boys were masturbating to underwear models in the Sears catalog or National Geographic. If you were lucky maybe your Dad had a collection of porno mags. Otherwise the only way you were going to see any nudity was a brief scene in a rated R movie.
SubJeff on 11/1/2017 at 19:54
Koyla is off the mark in so many ways I can't be bothered.
But Viv, you must have met people like this. I've got some real lefty bleeding heart friends who occasionally post mad PC stuff on my Facebook feed. They are all such lovely people in RL life though, I don't have the heart to call them out on it!
Vivian on 11/1/2017 at 21:30
I'm trying to think. I don't know if I really do? Or if do I don't hear them do it. I know loads of massive lefty uh, libatards or whatever, but they're all in ID or similar shit and the stuff they get worked up about usually actually matters (clean water, oil corruption etc).
faetal on 11/1/2017 at 23:17
I'd say I know about maybe 2 or 3 people who lay it on a bit thick with the offence stuff and probably 20-30 people who are always complaining about that type of person, often in the context of their own varying prejudices towards someone or other. The point for me is that there isn't a perfect system which pleases everyone. No matter what the culture is, there will always be people who are unhappy and those people will always try to imagine that any viewpoint to the left or right of them is somehow the extreme and unreasonable one.
SubJeff on 12/1/2017 at 05:33
Yeah faetal, it does seem like the Age of Opinions at the moment.
The annoying thing for me is a I AM a lefty and most of these social changes are a good thing imho. But, like the Bowie fans who were on TV yesterday (cringe), there are too many visible people in this group that make the rest of us look bad. It's difficult being in a group that looks bad because of some aspects of it when you're not in that sub-group. It's like being Pro-Israel; everyone thinks that makes you Pro-Netanyahu and Anti-Palestinian, like you can't be pro something without also being the most extreme, dumb version of that thing.
Another example is SD and his vegetarianism. I'm glad that it's acceptable as a lifestyle choice and I like the idea of it (because I really don't think animal slaughter is humane). But the fiver incident is the type of thing that makes veggies look like extreme nuts. I mean
Quote:
It is disgraceful that people are denied the opportunity to abstain from using the carcasses of murdered animals in the normal course of their lives.
That someone thought it was a good idea to use dead animals in the currency we use on a daily basis demonstrates a total lack of consideration for the ethical minority in this country.
what?
Kolya on 12/1/2017 at 07:41
Quote Posted by faetal
It's jarring how EVERY time I'm reading an opinion about how X Y Z aren't as much of a problem as people say it is, it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be a one of the X Y Z group saying it.
Now you're saying as self-proclaimed left-wingers that left-wing extremism isn't as bad as people say. Regardless of whether that's true, can you see now why this argument was wrong?
Of course any accused group will have a different opinion about the accusations than the accuser. But trying to exclude them from the discussion based on that bias is still an illegitimate move and a sign of an ideological mindset.
Tocky on 13/1/2017 at 03:13
Quote Posted by heywood
Always, I don't think sex appeal in film is inherently a problem. But when it is used gratuitously as a sales booster for no real artistic purpose then I find it to be in bad taste. I just don't see what purpose it serves to show Leia that way. The suggestion is that she is a sex slave, but perhaps she is not really a sex slave and Jabba is just doing it to humiliate her. Either way, I don't see how it adds anything to the story. It strikes me as being a marketing decision not an artistic decision. And I can tell you that as a boy who hit puberty right about when RotJ came out, I know first hand that costume helped sell tickets and video rentals.
Maybe this argument is really over a changing definition. When it is gratuitous it is sexism. But when one sees every bit of skin in a movie as sexist no matter the circumstance then it does devalue actual sexism to me. Also it makes those who can tell the difference look at one askance. Sexism actually IS offensive and likely wouldn't inspire this much debate. You sound old enough to recall actual sexism (though I would call Fast Times more of a truthful genre piece based on my school years) so you may understand my dismay at a definition I now see as a net catching more than the intended fish.
Also the purpose of the metal bikini scene was to show how she could not be cowed. To me it is obvious but then I'm not distracted by an attraction to her. Not my type I guess.
Dev_Anj on 13/1/2017 at 03:56
The problem with all of this is basically that we're going off what people think about a scene with a scantily clad woman. It's true that sexism is a problem, and more often than not women in movies are characterized more by their looks than by their actions. But in the end, we need to remember that showing anyone scantily clad in any work of fiction is an artistic choice, which may or may not be appropriate for the story. I feel that it's definitely valid to show someone scantily clad as long as it's done sparingly and in a tasteful manner. As for the general trends in the industry: they can't be changed overnight by a few people, and trying to lecture people on social topics generally tends to be counter productive since they will just be seeing as trying to push their personal concerns too hard. A lot of people's perceptions are molded through how they learn during their formative years, and to change that you need to work on that aspect first.
