Muzman on 7/3/2008 at 14:22
Come on, we all know it's the Kurds that are going to start World War 3
Rogue Keeper on 7/3/2008 at 14:48
Quote Posted by Tocky
What you don't yet is that for them to even have the chance the fledgling government had to be protected. Why were they even able to have elections do you think? Why did we need to rebuild utilities do you think? Sure we are going to be hated by them and the rest of the world but they will have a chance and in the end that's the only thing that matters.
Of course they are going to cozy up to Iran when we leave but maybe they can pull off the diplomacy thing and still not ethnic cleanse or religious cleanse or whatever. They have a chance now and we need to leave.
See, if we are backtracking the whole problem with Iraq, we come to the initial point that George Bush's intentions and reasons for the invasion weren't honest, or better said, they haven't been CLEAR.
If the reasons of Bush administration have been honest and clear (just liberation and real WMD threat), they would respect UN resolution (which, truthfully said, hasn't been written very well from legal aspect in the first place) and they would try to respect multilateral solutions on the UN ground, how to deal with the WMD threat. Bush admin wouldn't be so eager to invade Iraq. The neocon circles have been plotting the invasion even before he came into office. And then, coincidentally, 9/11 came very handy to push their radical foreign policy forward...
If such multilateral action did happen, the burden of Iraq wouldn't lie on America's shoulders, it would lie on shoulders of international community through the UN. Powell was so right when he told Bush (paraphrasing) : "Mr. President, if you decide to attack Iraq, you'll have it on your shoulders."
But that didn't happen. Bush has attacked Iraq like Supreme Prince of Freedom, and in his wake - naive leaders of lesser powers who he managed to convince and who trusted their unclear intelligence findings.
So why didn't Bush push more on the UN, to create some peacekeeping program for Iraq? One thing is true, UN peacekeeping forces are short on staff and funds, so is whole UN. But hey - which superpower has bigest debts when it comes to UN membership payment? Conservative circles in US don't trust the UN, because the UN is a barier for their megalomaniac (if we don't use the politically incorrect world 'imperialist') policies and point of view on the world, Bush administration has it's own reconomic interests in Iraq, and that's why the unilateral colonialist presence is necessary. He also doesn't want to pull the troops away while he's sitting in the Oval Office, as that would mean he has failed in this WoT crusade he invented. That, along with begging for UN's help too much, would be bad for leading position of this neocon faction within the Republican party, and for whole party in the future. But I guess you know that better.
I bet a multilateral UN peacekeeping force would cause much less tension and be a lesser object of hatred from fundamentalists than US troops are.
This has been stressed so many times in past years when it came to security arguments like you present. Not just on forums - on the international diplomatic scene, by many geopolitical analysts, etc...
But it's not only Iraqi fundamentalists who may not like the government. They can be very easily perceived like just puppets, tools of US policy. Formally they have been elected by Iraqis - but do they REALLY represent the will of Iraqi people? If I would be an Iraqi citizen, I would question that seriously.
And simple people just see lots of G.I. Joes protecting the Assembly or the administrative building, 1+1=2 - "Heeeey... does our government work for the Americans if they need their protection or what? That's not MY government! I want an UPRISING!" There you go...
Iraqi Shiites most likely go cozy up to Iran, but Sunnis, Kurds and the Christian rest surely won't. If Americans want to get rid of Iraq burden, they'll have to do some cleaning at home first. But most of all, they should revise this superficial idea that America is supposed to "protect Iraqis from themselves" with force and at all costs. Because that's where all that hate shit starts.
I don't "hate America". I'm very sure many thinking people in what we call "Western world" don't hate 100% of America. Afterall my country has dirty hands too, since we took our part in the Coalition, thanks to our former government's tendencies to virtually kiss Bush' ass. I despise only certain power/financial circles in America who rule it.
Kuuso on 7/3/2008 at 14:54
Quote Posted by demagogue
Pfft ... as if anybody in Serbia could trigger a world war.
Best thing I've read in ages. :cheeky:
catbarf on 7/3/2008 at 16:55
Quote Posted by Tocky
You people are saying the same things you said years ago and never bother to once think.
Quote Posted by Tocky
BUT I'VE BEEN HERE FOR YEARS AND SAID THEM ALREADY.
Irony.
Koki on 7/3/2008 at 18:40
Like rain on your wedding day.
catbarf on 7/3/2008 at 21:46
Quote Posted by Koki
Like rain on your wedding day.
Not at all.
Tocky on 8/3/2008 at 03:30
Quote Posted by BR796164
Goodstuff
Great post and I'm glad you find the time to do it. Yours was the sort of non playbook spouting mind I was trying to goad. I disagree about a few things. Because of the power vacum with the fall of Hussein it brought out the wolves hungry for it so I don't believe UN forces would have faired better particularly since they are geared more toward peacekeeping. Remember the Mullahs that had to be cowed? A certain amount of power had to be asserted and the US forces, bad as we are at guerilla war, are in a better position. Matter of fact we shouldn't even have had Brittish troops helping because it was our Bush turd to swallow.
Also there was the matter of the UN not enforcing weapons checks in a manner that would have caught any movement of them and the neocons took full advantage of this percieved limpwristedness. As you said though thier existence was a lie taken full advantage of by the admistration. However I have some doubts as to whether it was one also perpetrated by Saddam to bolster his percieved power as his second in command stated on the Daily show that he believed they were there and taken across the border. God knows what intel the spooks really heard or even who was manipulating them.
The truth is we supported Saddam as enemy of my enemy and did owe the people a chance. Bush pals saw the chance to pad thier pockets and we needed to rebuild infrastructure after giving it to them. A shitstorm is born. Perfect for Halburton. However buildings were not all that needed rebuilding.
The government we helped foster is now breaking free of us. That is a good thing. They feel strong enough now to talk with Iran which must mean they feel thier law enforcement and security can handle things on thier own provided they give enough shows of independence from America to pacify the people. Perhaps they see the upcoming election as the end of our protection but I hope that is not the only reason. If only they can pacify the Sunnis and the Kurds don't cause Turkey to invade and... ad infinitum.
Protecting Iraqis from themselves was not a superficial. They did need it or they could never have gotten this far. Too many power wolves and old hatreds. Part of the at all costs part was clumsy intel gathering and part was frustration but if the people can hate us it might help them refocus some of thier hate for each other. That too can be a good thing because they will still have wedge driving Al Queda to deal with and that is one less bullet in thier bandolier. Hopefully sometime down the road they can consider that not only thier blood was shed for a free Iraq.
As for oil we haven't seen jack there to cause any effect whatsoever. But unless you have new info don't go over the same old stuff. Speaking of, I was bitter that nobody remembers my previous positions who is an oldie and that one who should know me could mistake frustration for arrogance. Strawman my ass. I wasn't even arguing. Fuck if I know how ye olde USian voted in between raping Indians and subjegating land.
And Afghanistan is an entirely different animal.
