mothra on 22/6/2010 at 08:26
problem is, they don't seem to have any concept concerning viewpoints/perspective and how it's being presented. e.g.: moving a box around in strength-mode. Seeing how they even perspective-shift while using LADDERS why did they not do it while lifting a crate ? that would have been more appropriate than making the box invisible - that may be a nice throwback to DX1 but with how they "designed" the rest of the game it looks out of place. I think they don't have a clue. And while AssassinsCreed featured lame auto-button moves it at least stayed in this perspective during normal gameplay (not cutscenes).
Eldron on 22/6/2010 at 09:08
Quote Posted by Papy
Out of curiosity, what do you think was wrong with Deus Ex combat system?
As for a "better" game than Invisible War, I don't see what can make you believe that.
Nothing out of the way wrong, it just wasn't something that was too fun, but I guess that even further promotes the fact that everyone was better off avoiding it.
Weapons were mostly spray and pray with the exception of the head-shooting when trying to take it stealthy, there was really little visual feedback on the weapons to make them feel really good.
Melee ended up in a mindless hack and slash if you tried to backstab someone but came in the wrong angle and it ended up badly, same with using the stun prod, you don't have an indication of when it'll end up an instant knockdown or a shaking stun.
Now these issues faded because the game overall was so extremely good, but they definitely could've been better.
Now I return to you, tell me why you think deus ex had a flawless combat system.
Kaleid on 22/6/2010 at 09:15
Quote Posted by Eldron
Now I return to you, tell me why you think deus ex had a flawless combat system.
You didn't ask me but I'll give my opinion anyway. Certainly DX1 didn't have a flawless combat but it was one of the better and it won't become better by being more or less similar to other games with their hollywood-OTT-it-must-look-good-combat.
Matthew on 22/6/2010 at 09:32
Mostly I would like AI that didn't try to run into the path of your assault weapon fire a lot of the time, really.
DDL on 22/6/2010 at 10:21
I always thought that DX's clunky combat was kinda appropriate, given that real life combat is like that. Two thugs with pistols standing ten feet away from each other will struggle to hit each other even once, though the bullets will certainly serve to encourage both to seek cover and/or run away.
Unless you put the skill points in to make yourself a master of pistols (or take the time to line up a shot, or close to point blank range), you'll probably see much the same in DX.
Balletic matrix-styled gun-fu is really not what it was about.
Quote Posted by Eldron
Melee ended up in a mindless hack and slash if you tried to backstab someone but came in the wrong angle and it ended up badly, same with using the stun prod, you don't have an indication of when it'll end up an instant knockdown or a shaking stun.
Rule for getting the x10 damage multiplier in DX: be behind them, and touching. That's it. They don't register being actually bumped from behind, so just make sure you're aiming within the 180 degree rear arc, and so close you can't get closer, and fire.
NB: it's also not specific to stun prod or other melee weapons: any weapon will do this: firing a tranq dart at point blank range into the back of a guard results in an instant "whuhuhwhwuhuhuhu *thump*"
Eldron on 22/6/2010 at 10:37
A stun with stunprod in the face would result in a standing shaking human, and would require an additional stun in the face to put him down to the ground, while if you did it successfully in the back you'd take him down instantly.
a knife in the face would just piss him off though.
I think the best thing might be if we get all the variation that made deus ex so good, they've shown us a assasins creed style stealth assassin take in that particular demonstration, and we'll know they'll have regular firefights, but with a coversystem this time around, in addition to that we'll have completely non-takedown stealthing where he just wont touch anyone and just sneak past.
The best part about deus ex was that everyone played it their own way, This is what I hope still remains.
That and the track in the warehouse made me curious, the drum beat has that second NYC theme feel to it.
DDL on 22/6/2010 at 11:39
Quote Posted by Eldron
A stun with stunprod in the face would result in a standing shaking human, and would require an additional stun in the face to put him down to the ground, while if you did it successfully in the back you'd take him down instantly.
a knife in the face would just piss him off though.
It's just understanding the mechanics. Admittedly they are quirky mechanics (and there is a LOT of 'hidden' stuff), but the backstab I assume is a thief-esque reference (and as noted is a 10x damage attack, not necessarily an instant takedown -if your weapon doesn't do enough damage, or they have a LOT of health, it won't work..I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work on gunther, for instance).
Stunning someone sets them into a stunned state, and all damage they take in that state is multiplied by 4 (for some reason..maybe jiggling people can't roll with the blows? Also this is an alternative to the 10x dam from backstab -and indeed takes precedence, so don't bother backstabbing people who are stunned).
Thus, a prod to the face does 15 damage, not multiplied by any headshot bonus at all because for some reason stunned and knockedout damagetypes don't do that, and then the next prod to the face does 60 damage. 75 dam is enough to KO most non-military types.
However, a prod to the torso does 30 damage (because x2 multiplier for all non-head locations), and then a second prod to the torso (or arm, leg, whatever) does 120. 150 dam is enough for all standard military types (not Mj12 commandos: they've got 250 health).
Knife to the face does 40 damage (5 dam x8 for headshot), but no stun, so a second knife to the face is again 40 damage.
Torso similar, except now it's only 10 damage. Do not try to stab someone to death in the torso.
Now, because you only get the head multiplier for non-stunning weapons (which is possibly the silliest bit of DX damage code), you're actually better off (damage-wise) prodding them in the chest for 30 dam, then stabbing them in the face: 5x8x4 = 160 damage. Of course, this will jolt them out of stunning, so might not be the best course of action.
And this is before taking into account any damage modifiers for skill/augs. Master low tech will x2 your prod/knife damage, and max aug combat will x2 your knife damage (but not prod)..but this is additive, so max both is x3 to knife damage.
This all means that with max augcombat, master lowtech, hitting a stunned soldier in the face with a DTS does 100x3x8x4 = 9600 damage...:thumb:
Anyway, that concludes today's lesson into DX damage mechanics.
So, how 'bout them videos, huh?
(personally I still prefer all the above, silly as it may be, to "if behind and in 3rd person, 999999 damage")
Eldron on 22/6/2010 at 12:44
It does follow the mechanics of hardcore roleplaying games, lots of rules and such :)
Hopefully this is connected to a skill, meaning you cant possibly take down a group of enemies like this unless you have a massive amount of skills, including your own personal skillset to handle that situation, that and they're more likely to turn their head around to see you before this happenes.
game demonstrations are played with godlike characters with the outset to show the most console-cinematic experience ever.
Taking down enemies in deus ex was mostly always a guaranteed one hit kill, if you came from behind, but the work was getting there, and I'm hoping at higher difficulities that it's something you have to work for considering the fact that it's much easier to get a successfull kill in the third entry.
I mean, it could be worse, we could be shooting black goo with shotguns.
Neb on 22/6/2010 at 14:24
I wonder what a free roaming enemy does while you're locked into a take-down with someone else, and how much that changes whether you'd bother trying in tight situations. I noticed the demo didn't have any 'loose ends' wandering around.
To add to the ambient negativity: The animation while in cover mode looks terrible. The first thing I'd want to know before buying is "can it be played through without ever using it?"
mothra on 22/6/2010 at 14:48
did you notice the section where he punches thru the wall to kill a guy ?
in the same building there is a guy ontop or on the 2nd floor. he never makes a peep. So I would say the AI is either totally retarded, random guards are deaf or the animations will NOT have ANY impact on the gameworld - aka - they just show something but in the "game" world the takedown is instant and no stealth is broken. e.g. when he breaks thru the roof down on the guys and does the stomp/mine thing the only part where the AI catches up to you is when you shoot the glass. Afterwards I guess it's all AUG animation and takes up no time in the gameworld. After the move you can see other enemies in the vicinity are still far away instead of swarming the point of impact.
So what would happen if you have a double takedown and another guard strolls by - my guess is they will have him "wait" in limbo for the animation to finish until they let him walk further. actually freezing the environments besides idle animations.
If not those canned animations will lead to all kinds of funny problems imo. they don't seem to have a clue at all.
