Sperry on 7/2/2020 at 17:59
I'd like to wish you good luck on your paper. Could you tell us what field you're majoring in? I'd also like to share my thoughts on why I create Thief levels in 2019.
Firstly, I suspect the nature of the Dark Engine's subtractive CSG contributes to create a very unique
feeling within in-game environments. I've never felt as much satisfaction with any additive game engine (whether designing or playing). To me, the rendering of subtractive geometry in the Dark Engine provides a much more concrete and "tangible" feeling. Other keywords would include: solid, reliable, involving, impervious, cosy, homely... if that makes sense. Kind of like a burrow.
Specifically in my case, I currently prefer using DromEd 1.33 for my work. Understandably, I've been asked why I prefer to use DromEd 1.33 (T1) rather than DromEd 1.18 or 1.19 (T2) or whatever (this however is in my opinion a false debate given that all of these engines are technically
passé). Granted, Thief 2 has an objectively better engine. But following this logic, one may argue: so does the latest instalment of Unreal or Doom.
But why Thief 1? Content-wise, I find TDP to be an overall much more polished game (despite using an inferior engine): everything from the engrossing narrative and character arcs that deploy themselves from one OM to the next (sometimes through the brilliant and meaningful cutscenes,
cf. (
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132423/beyond_pacing_games_arent_.php) the article referred to in Marzec's post), to the far-fetched variety of its AI fauna (spanning from gritty and mundane to holy and religious to mythological and dionysiac), to the fascinatingly uncanny environments and setting (medieval magical steampunk? isn't that an oxymoron?), to the peculiar speech of its characters -- accents (what accent is it exactly? Cambridgeshire? East Midlands?), idioms, dialects, expressions, etc. It's really it's own thing, as (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqNE0nQMZ64) Grimbeard recently put it, as there's nothing else quite like it. As such, it's a fictional universe which I find one can easily expand upon.
More specifically still, I so far exclusively create content for "Old Dark". Why? This choice is very personal, as PinkDot helped me realise: (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150276) I've recently justified this choice in another thread, and for the sake of scientific research I've included my answer below. Perhaps this could also account for why some still create for Thief today:
Quote Posted by Sperry
If justification is needed, I've been through quite enough changes in real life to feel justified in wanting something old and familiar, such as DromEd (and this includes the challenge of going beyond it's limits, as absurd as it may seem since New Dark).
To me, DromEd is kind of like an old security blanket, a teddy bear, old pyjamas, a dogs old chew toy, or even a doormat: its familiarity must be undisputed and absolute, and one can be fond of it despite its imperfections or shortcomings. Also, I find there can be intimate value to it because of how it secretly retains significance and value to me, while appearing old and useless to others. I enjoy working with familiar Old Dark.
Also, there's the practical dimensions which I've mentioned above (having DromEd on a ten year old computer, without any internet connection).
Finally, since it takes me so long to release FMs these days, I fear that getting into something new at this point will only further complicate and delay any project. If I'm to make a mission in New Dark, I'd ideally want it to utilise the improvements of what New Dark has to offer (not just avoid some limitations -- such as cell count or object max -- which can be surpassed anyway with some problem solving and a bit of compromise). I like the ideas of (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148845&page=2&p=2428692&viewfull=1#post2428692) "the discipline of building" and "optimized building style" ;). I know the rules and am properly disciplined with Old Dark, getting back up to date with new software would require a certain amount work with unfamiliar tools which to me today is undesirable. Too much hassle.
If that makes me a dinosaur, I'm fine with that! Either way, my missions will be playable on both Old Dark and New Dark, so no one is hurt in the process, right?
On a more general note: regarding pacing in gameplay as opposed to pacing in narrative, I find Wesołowski's article to be thought provoking indeed. I'd like to further suggest that: rather than comparing computer games to a cinematic experience, one can also find inspiration in music, inasmuch as a symphony, opera, or even a jazz piece is composed of sounds, harmonies, rhythms, melodies, light-motives, movements, etc. A multitude of streams of information running in parallel. Can Thief's emergent gameplay be seen as an opportunity for the user (player or designer) to interpret/improvise an ephemeral opus?
To me, DromEd is less about performance and more about experience and experimentation. But it's a complex question. And of course, there is some nostalgia.
Also, a "precious baby" isn't necessarily "fun". :joke:
rustmite on 7/2/2020 at 18:00
Perspective from a long time user (since game launches):
The thing that keeps me always coming back for more is this:
To see the creativity of the mission designers and that they always seem to create something new and exciting to try. It is a fresh perspective on a familiar platform.
They are really many very talented and creative authors who make these levels and great puzzles to solve them.
This platform never seems to get old, especially with all the creative minds out there refreshing the experience.
It is always engaging whether it is a very difficult or relatively easy mission to complete.
Keep up the good work for all mission creators and your work is highly appreciated.
bbb on 12/2/2020 at 00:25
Late in posting this.
There are three reasons why I build missions:
1. It is a great alternative to sitting in the family room with the family where there are nothing but foolish shows on TV.
2. This is an incredible community and the work authors put in to build missions is very much appreciated.
3. Building missions is fun and makes an analytical person like me feel creative.
Back to tryin got finish the TG mission I started to submit to the 20th anniversary contest. I am a really slow builder.
bbb
ps: Another reason is I love playing Thief and it is a way to give back to the community.
Eiji on 27/3/2020 at 14:34
I'm not a mission maker.. but I would say someting about the missions themselves... its a kind of interactive "fan fiction".
vfig on 31/5/2020 at 13:03
No doubt this reply comes much too late to be useful for FastGarrett, but my reasons:
I fell in love with Thief—its worldbuilding, its approach level design, its gameplay—from the moment I first saw it. And I still love it. I think the only other games that I've played that have had a similar breadth and depth of appeal for me are the STALKER series and the Pathologic series. I guess they all mix slow pacing and tension, and exploration, and storytelling in similar ways?.
Why do I make fan missions? Because I started playing fan missions pretty recently, and got hugely inspired by the creativity I found in there. And a little later, I heard about the upcoming TDP 20th anniversary contest here, and decided I should try making a mission, however small or crappy, for the contest. That inspiration and that goal was the initial force that got me picking up DromEd, but I quickly came to love the creative freedom that it offered.
Despite the many, many technical and graphical (and even scripting) limitations of the engine, it enables a designer to easily customise so much of how their mission works and plays. The object system (archetypes and concretes and metaprops and links) and Stim/Response are hugely empowering, and that the editor is the game makes for rapid iteration. And I think the structure of the game, as disjoint missions rather than a persistent world (like SS2) or faux-continuous world (like HL), implicitly encourages making smaller things, that are thereby more achievable.
Overall, Thief and DromEd makes a great platform for storytelling-and-gameplay, I guess.
Esme on 5/6/2020 at 13:02
I've already replied but I've thought of some more reasons why we create missions for thief
Primarily we create the missions that we want to play, if other people enjoy them that's great, but mainly they're missions we want to play
And we do it in a 20 year old game engine for a couple of reasons
Firstly it has the mechanics built in to support stealth (sound propagation, shadows, variable AI alertness etc...), TDM also has these now after a huge amount of excellent work by the TDM team & TDM is now starting to develop more missions, but thief was there first
And another reason is we've had the tools (Dromed) from day one, we haven't had to go out & buy an editor so it's been accessible from day one