Aerothorn on 13/11/2009 at 23:00
WAY TO KILL THE TOPIC WORMRAT
Thief13x on 13/11/2009 at 23:33
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
But it so quickly devolves into stupid shit ("Hurrr, living in Virginia is the same level of consent as joining the fucking military") that it's too much work to correct the level of stupidity involved.
Umm, you realize that your argument was an opinion right? As soon as you start acting like your opinion is a fact, shit does degenerate. Why the fuck do you want to fight so bad anyway? Jesus, it's like a damn baby that wails every time you stop rocking it
Rug Burn Junky on 13/11/2009 at 23:46
The question of whether they should be treated differently is certainly an opinion.*
The question of whether the state you live in is fundamentally different than affirmatively signing up for the military for purposes of giving consent to be treated under a different set of laws is not. It's like saying that the Earth is flat, it can't be taken seriously by anyone with a brain.
It's not that I want to fight, it's just that you continue to say such ridiculously stupid shit that you're not worthy of any respect. It's pretty much common consensus that you're a moron, it's just a shame that you can't recognize your own limitations.
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*fuck, I'm letting you off the hook way too fucking easily. Even that question ain't simply an "Opinion" - it is a recognition of the different legal realities imposed on civilians as opposed to servicemembers. Whether you think this "is correct" is an opinion. Whether you think this "is" is not.
SubJeff on 14/11/2009 at 00:07
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
It's pretty much common consensus that you're a moron
QFT
However, on the the issue - I disagree with RBJ. I don't think that acknowledgement of murder as a terrible crime equates to execution being as terrible. In fact I think that crimes other than murder should receive the death penalty; those where purposful inflicting of extreme suffering are involved, for reasons I've stated already. I just feel that the death sentence is sometimes appropriate.
Thief13x on 14/11/2009 at 00:20
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
passionate speech
Let me recap:
You claim that John Allen Muhammad should not have been killed (an opinion) but Nidal Hasan should be (another opinion)
You claim that Nidal Hasan should be given a different sentence than John Muhammad because he's in the military (an opinion)
You say that the decision to join military (hence accepting the possibility of being executed for murder) should not be equivalent to the decision to move to a state with capital punishment (hence accepting the possibility of being executed for murder)...(an opinion)
..feel free to stop me any time
Rug Burn Junky on 14/11/2009 at 00:50
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I don't think that acknowledgement of murder as a terrible crime equates to execution being as terrible.
That's not really what I stated and it requires context. It's a not a question of whether it's "
as terrible" but whether it can be justified on the basis of the severity of the crime. It's not an argument against the death penalty, it's an argument against an argument for the death penalty if that makes any sense.
Quote:
In fact I think that crimes other than murder should receive the death penalty; those where purposful inflicting of extreme suffering are involved, for reasons I've stated already. I just feel that the death sentence is sometimes appropriate.
It's entirely possible to strongly feel that it's appropriate while recognizing that there are logical/moral contradictions in such a stance. I have no problem with that, and I really don't have anything against death penalty proponents - just the arguments.
Quote Posted by Thief13x
feel free to stop me any time
Stop. Just stop. This is like trying to educate a kitchen table. You're blathering and as usual you're simply missing the point.
Thief13x on 14/11/2009 at 00:54
please tell me that there is a point RBJ:( and not just endless opinions. FFS I got my hopes up
CCCToad on 14/11/2009 at 00:56
Quote Posted by Thief13x
You say that the decision to join military (hence accepting the possibility of being executed for murder) should not be equivalent to the decision to move to a state with capital punishment (hence accepting the possibility of being executed for murder)...(an opinion)
Without even getting into the whole higher standards issue...
Its fundamentally different because when you join the military, you take an oath to be bound by "the provisions of the Uniform Code of Military Justice", and are obligated to serve a term of not less than three years. That can run a lot longer depending on scholarship money receive and additional service contracts signed.
More importantly, joining the military is always a conscious decision. Many people do not deliberately choose the state they are in, but follow it based on job choices, family, or other factors that make choice of state secondary.
If you live in a state with capital punishment (like Texas), you take no oath and you are free to leave at any time.
If you aren't familiar with the military, let me drop a tidbit that should put things in perspective. Unlike the rest of US society, you can go to jail for cheating on your spouse.
Thief13x on 14/11/2009 at 00:57
Quote:
If you live in a state with capital punishment (like Texas), you take no oath and you are free to leave at any time.
Well I never took an oath not to murder or to live in the United States so why should I be punished at all?
Quote Posted by CCCToad
More importantly, joining the military is always a conscious decision.
And murdering is not?
cmon RBJ, Toad, is this a prank?
CCCToad on 14/11/2009 at 01:38
Quote Posted by Thief13x
Well I never took an oath not to murder or to live in the United States so why should I be punished at all?
I don't know the full legal explanation yet, but I can elaborate on the underlying philosophy. The founders of the United States were heavily influenced by what is known as Social contract ethics: by being a part of society, you agree to follow the rules of society so as to reap the benefits of mutual co-operation. It was this social contract that gave them the right to rebel and form a new government. In their view, the colonists had upheld their end of the social contract, and the English King failed to uphold his end.
By accepting your citizenship, you agree to be bound by the laws of the country and state you are a citizen of. If you do not uphold your end of the bargain, the state is well within its rights to take your rights in order to protect those who do follow the social contract.
Quote:
And murdering is not?
Its a constant that murder is (barring insanity) a conscious decision, so its a constant variable when comparing murder in the military to murder in virginia.
Now, whether the military
should punish murder more harshly is a matter of opinion and is up for debate. Whether they do is a legal fact. If we stop getting the two confused, we might actually have an interesting discussion.
