Cipheron on 27/2/2022 at 04:29
Quote Posted by Jashin
Domestically, the ones at the top of the government (of both dem and rep) are loving it. They got two sibling countries fighting each other, capital leaving Europe back to US, and you folks have had your attention diverted from real issues at home like the wealth inequity, homelessness, crumbling infrastructure, etc. etc.
This bit make the least sense.
What distracts people from problems like homelessness and wealth inequality? Every fucking thing distracts them. The Superbowl, reality TV, beer, pot, video games, blockbuster movies. All those things have more effect that some news story about Russia invading somewhere, and the reason is that because all these other things are repeatable, mass-produced sources of distraction. So they don't need the latest news story to distract people, and relying on random current events news isn't reliable or repeatable.
Breaking it down, the line "they're only pushing <story x> to distract from <problem y>" is disingenuous. The goal of that sentence structure is NOT to highlight a <problem Y> but to diminish <story X>.
The fact that you gave a total grab-bag of problems there is the giveway. Why not throw in the opioid crisis, meth addiction, war on drugs, pharma prescription prices, medical bankruptcies, child malnutrition, gun crime, mental illness epidemic, hospital understaffing, underpaid teachers, poor literacy, racial inequality ETC ETC ETC. All those things are things that the "Russia Story" would equally be "distracting" from, plus countless more problems. Each one of these things is a thing which would be very costly to fix, and the main reason most of them aren't fixed is that nobody can agree on how to fix them. Since there's no consensus, then nobody needs to "distract" anyone. So ... is the "Russia Story", **specifically**, distracting the masses from fixing literally the sum total of problems of the "human condition"? Even without a "distraction" nobody can agree on HOW to solve something like homelessness, so it wouldn't matter.
Or did you just throw out a "they're only pushing <story x> to distract from <problem y>" yourself not so much to highlight <problem Y> but more to diminish the importance of <story X>? It's more true that ALL stories/media distracts from ALL problems. So you've proven literally nothing specific about the Russia story there. Literally nobody in the "elite" is thinking that because of the Russia Story there's less attention on homelessness, so they're off the hook. In fact, stories about the homeless can be a distraction from deeper underlying economic issues, it's all in how the issue is framed. They can just frame it as "we need to help the people who fell through the cracks". Which implies there's a simple fix which just involves helping the visibly homeless and fixing the "few" "cracks". So get the hobos, give them a shower, a meal, clean clothes and a place to sleep. 99% of the distracted public would be happy that the entire problem was solved - despite the underlying issue being that many workers are in a precarious position. VERY few news stories focus on those precarious not-yet-homeless people.
As other examples of why that structure is wrong:-
"nobody should ever eat ice cream, because that's money they could have donated to feeding the homeless"
"nobody should play video games, because that's a distraction from thinking about the homeless, and time they could have spent working for charities that help the homeless".
Basically you can apply the same logic to ANY activity ANY spending ANY other concern. So ... nobody should ever do anything else except worry about the 100% most pressing problems, nor spend money on anything else other that fixing those problems. The problem with that logic is that if we all thought like that, literally nobody would listen to music, play games, dance, create anything fun. There's always something "more important" than doing those things. And the result is that the world would be worse and less colorful, because we gave up all "frivolous" things to spend all time focusing on important things.
The same applies to saying that Issue X shouldn't get attention because Problem Y still exists. Hint: Problem Y will ALWAYS exist, so saying that is just a get out of jail free card to dismiss concern indefinitely for Issue X. Hey let's not worry about the overseas invasion going on RIGHT NOW until we've solved the totality of our local economic and societal problems, right?
Expanding that rule to universal scope, you'd be saying that no country should ever be concerned about anything happening in any other country until, and only until, they fixed all their own problems first (which of course would never happen). Great shitty world we'd live in them. Unkraine being invaded and bombed by Russia is WORSE than having crumbling infrastructure, but you're saying we shouldn't give a shit because America "has problems already" Not very empathetic. So if the guy across the road is burning to death that doesn't warrant concern, because your house has problems too. So, think about it, is America being bombed and invaded right now? No? If so that might explain why people who ARE being bombed and invaded is the big news story, and not another think-piece about funding for bridge and road repair, and news articles discussing how to solve the homeless problem.
Cipheron on 27/2/2022 at 06:10
As for the "history" a quick read about the Euromaidan
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan)
It reveals that the crisis came about because there were planned pro-EU agreements, but the new government reneged on them and tried to side with Russia. Then there were huge anti-Russian protests, and that government was driven from power.
So the backstory here isn't Russia as some innocent bystander pulled into a crisis, they tried to back a puppet government and that puppet government was then driven out by mass uprisings. After their puppet government failed, they decided to start carving off bits of Ukraine through military force instead of covertly. Russia was not drawn in, they pushed in, using the crisis as a convenient precedent.
I mean, the guy they drove out of power lives in Russia now. Unless he was a Russian asset or someone they find convenient to keep around he wouldn't be allowed there. That's the guy who caused the fucking Euromaidan, and he's an honoured guest in Russia now.
If you read the Wikipedia article on Viktor Yanukovych, especially the bit from "Reports of corruption and cronyism" downwards, you can see why he might have wanted to be backed by someone like Putin. Yanukovych amassed wealth of $12 billion in a few years in office, gave huge amounts of national public and private assets to his son's company, and other collaborators, and all up about $70 billion disappeared from the nation's treasury. He also stocked the entire country's public service with hand-picked associates from his home region and send about half the economic spending to that one region.
So Yanukovych was a klepto-dictator in the making. Someone like that *cannot afford* to be voted out of office, since he would end up having most of his families wealth removed, and him being exiled, dead or in prison. So you gotta destroy or co-opt the opposition, control the media, ban protests etc. He did all that. And you need a powerful ally, that's where siding with Putin would have come in. Yanukovych probably couldn't rely on the Ukrainian military to have complete personal loyalty, so he would have looked to Putin to prop him up longer term.
He was a guy propped up by Russia, and quite clearly fitting the pattern of dictator-in-making you seen time and time again through modern history. When he fell, then the nation became destabilized. So Russia jumping in and invading parts of the nation to "stabilize" it is a load of fucking shit. Don't back dictators to start with then claim they're fixing the mess by invading when the dictator falls.
Tocky on 27/2/2022 at 17:19
Anyone have confirmation of this? I hope this is true but the Daily Mail and a few others are the only ones reporting it so far.
(
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrainian-forces-destroy-convoy-of-56-chechen-tanks-kill-general-near-kyiv-report/)
Edit: Well I'm kicked off facebook again. I told a KGB asset to "go lick Putin's boots like a good little puppy". I don't think it was the algorithm that picked up on it so the asset herself/himself must have reported me. Eh. When are they going to kick me off for a month? Damn, I've been kicked off a week many times now. I guess they figure if folks are off a month or more then they won't come back.
Jashin on 27/2/2022 at 18:12
Quote Posted by serg_kundel
@Jashin If omit some details, in general you have provided correct picture of the history.
On first Maidan we (Ukrainians) were not agree with the results of president's elections. According to the "official" results Victor Janukovich (with "whited" criminal past, pro-russian candidate) was the winner. The people were not agree with such results, there was a big number of things showing that votes were fake. Few people started the protest on the main square of Kyiv, which is called "Maidan of the Independence". Police stopped this in cruel way and, as result, on the next day there were thousands. People were exhausted for many different processes in the country. That time everything was peaceful. The result of 1st Maidan was election of the president - Victor Jushenko (pro-european candidate). Unfortunately, his weak political actions, during his term, caused that next president becomes Victor Janukovich and his political team start dominating in the parliament. A lot of different pro-russian laws were accepted, while pro-european - not. During his term he was destroying our army - selling military equipment and vehicals, shrinking the number of soldiers (by russian president recommendations). And in some moment Janukovich should decide the following: go into russian Tamozhenyi Souz (what actually right now is Russia-Belarus-Kazakhstan) or select moving into EU direction. Of course he selected russian direction. And that cause...
2014 Euromaidan. Once again all started from the small group of students, that were not agree with this decision. And again - police stopped that. Next day - thousands people, which started blaming him mainly for this choice and a lot of others pro-russian laws. "It" (russian president) even send personally to Janukovich a lot of money,as Ukrainian debt, for "correct" choice and say to stop Maidan. At some point police start acting brutally against it's own people. Situation becomes worse and worse with every day, and than start shooting at the people. Later there were evidences that "it" send his special police ("Omon") to Ukraine to stop Maidan, for whatever it takes. A lot of people died in that period, but people were not afraid. I would say, it really united us as nation - Maidan transformed into small city, where everybody knew what to (who protects, who heals injured, who brings supplies, food, etc) and how to manage things inside, whithout politicians. After the attacks, there was really low trust to the politics, who were at the head of Maidan (Klichko, Jatsenyuk, Tagnybok). At some point some people decided to visit house of Janukovich and "say hi". But Janukovich decideed to flee into Rostov-na-Donu (russia). And the 2nd Maidan was over, the new president becomes Petro Poroshenko. At that point Ukraine was weak, "it" used that situation and annexed Crimea peninsula (at the South of Ukraine) without blood. By the time when "it" start capturing the East of Ukraine (Luhansk and Donetsk regions or Donbass area) our people were ready to "say welcome" with guns. It was a miracle, that for so short time we had an army created from scratch (thanks for ruinned army to Janukovich) by our own people, who decided to pay back for Crimea and support of our west partners. Unfortunately russia was able to annex part of East of Ukraine and then all these cease-fire, diplomacy start working for 8 years.
And now we have these, thanks to that asshole "it". He thought that it will be 2-3 days operation. Pff. Now even ordinary people in Kyiv, Kharkiv, Kherson, Mykolaiv and other cities are successfully stoping russian vehicles with guns, cocktails Molotov, anti-tanks complexes. We have a long queues of people who wants to be in army or territorial protection. They all stands there not because of military law, but by their anger to kill at least one occupant personally. We will protect our country to the last.
I want once again to thank everyone, who helps us to stop that crazy, mind-illed Nazis terrorist and protect our Ukraine territory.
GLORY TO UKRAINE!
СЛАВА УКРАЇНІ!
P.s.: please forgive me if I wrote smth in not-english.
I'm sorry friend, if you're in that mess as a civilian, then as one human being to another, it's a terrible. In your position, knowing myself, I may do the same as you. Even long time observers didn't predict the size and scale of the operations under way.
I just want to say one thing: This was never gonna be 2-3 days, seeing as most of the Ukrainian population has effectively been recruited, maybe even into future conflicts. Ukrainian military's hardware may be old, but city fighting will always be drawn out and bloody, especially now that it's being armed like the Syrian rebels.
Zelensky's call for all male able to hold a gun to 60 y.o. to be conscripted is tremendously sad. I've seen a few Ukrainians elsewhere praise him for appearing to stay and fight, but the fact that events have come to this... As a head of state, he bares responsibility. For a small/medium state, a good politician sometimes has to take the knee like a man, so that his country doesn't have to suffer, even if his countrymen may curse him. It's the ultimate irony that Zelensky is a comedic actor, cus he followed his script fully but it's not funny. Regular people's lives are being played with like a videogame.
There's just too much fake news right now, only reliable source seems to be satellite photos. Russia is not there to knock out tanks, planes, or civilians... Don't die trying to fight professional soldiers for someone else's political goal. Let the soldiers fight. Stay alive, keep your family safe and together. I hope you come through this okay.
rachel on 27/2/2022 at 18:37
Quote Posted by Jashin
As a head of state, he bares responsibility. For a small/medium state, a good politician sometimes has to take the knee like a man, so that his country doesn't have to suffer, even if his countrymen may curse him. It's the ultimate irony that Zelensky is a comedic actor, cus he followed his script fully but it's not funny. Regular people's lives are being played with like a videogame.
The dude has a law degree in economics and he comes from a highly educated background (his parents are a professor and an engineer respectively), stop propagating the "comedian"angle as if he was no more than a clueless buffoon who stumbled into politics, that clearly was never the case. You speak against propaganda, yet you are disseminating it yourself.
And when someone came to take over your country by force, you sure as hell don't just roll with it. If that's really what you think, you're delusional.
Nicker on 27/2/2022 at 18:38
Quote:
As a head of state, he bares responsibility.
For Putin's aggression? For Russia's rush into autocracy? For Trump's capitulation? For NATO's abandonment? For the UN's dysfunction?
Shall we sacrifice Ukraine to appease Putin, as if that will stop his greed?
lowenz on 27/2/2022 at 18:50
Quote Posted by Jashin
Don't die trying to fight professional soldiers for someone else's political goal. Let the soldiers fight. Stay alive, keep your family safe and together. I hope you come through this okay.
The first "professional russian soldiers" are in their 20s and they DON'T want to fight for this stupid occupation.
People in the cities now HATE russians and are preparing Molotov everywhere.
Good job bringing back the "empire" divided by "communists", Mr. Putin......
rachel on 27/2/2022 at 18:51
Quote Posted by Nicker
For Putin's aggression? For Russia's rush into autocracy? For Trump's capitulation? For NATO's abandonment? For the UN's dysfunction?
Shall we sacrifice Ukraine to appease Putin, as if that will stop his greed?
"She was wearing a skirt and walking alone at night, she was clearly looking for it." -Jashin, probably.
