michael a on 4/12/2022 at 00:16
Quote Posted by Soul Tear
These guys will never run out of ammo, but the fuel for vehicles that the Evil Putin gives them will last for a few of days.
This is all that your media feeds you. All that a European philistine can count on is spaghetti on his ears.
Russia, not Putin, will never allow Ukraine to join NATO. I am a part of Russia, and I will not allow it either.
Ukraine has no right to be in NATO. You've been completely brainwashed. No one has the right to be in NATO after the 1997 treaty. An agreement on non-expansion of NATO was signed. You had to keep your end of the bargain. But you deceived Russia. And Putin was not there then.
And who is the aggressor? This is a fee.
As soon as Zelensky mentioned the need for a nuclear bomb, Russia immediately attacked. We will not allow a nuclear bomb near Moscow. Don't be an idiot!
Rockets from Kharkov will reach Moscow in less than 3 minutes. Therefore, NATO will not be in Ukraine. Never.
I'll tell you more, to date Ukraine has lost 1/4 of its territory, where the Russian population lives.
You don't know the truth. You have honest military experts, historians and journalists, but they are silenced and threatened with criminal prosecution. All Putin's speeches are shown to you shortened, cut out of context.
The Russian part of the population of Ukraine does not want to be part of Nazi Ukraine. Ukrainians have always hated Russians. Russian language has been banned for the Russian part of the Ukraine population. This is an enthic conflict. And if the Minsk agreements had been implemented, it would have been solved, but when Ukraine started insisting on NATO and a nuclear bomb, we were forced to intervene. We will not allow either one or the other.
Your leaders want to impress upon you that Putin is a Demon and the Russians are savages, with only one goal - that any actions of your governments are justified.
Just calm down and let us resolve our conflict. We'll do it anyway. You can hate us, impose sanctions against our cats, but do not interfere. This is our war. We didn't finish off the Nazis in 1945, but we will do it now.
As for Zelensky, he is 3% Jewish, and he does not decide anything. The Nazis from various formations are the ones who are now in control of the situation. They do not obey orders, and kill Ukrainian officers who want to retreat.
Even if Zelensky agrees to fulfill all Putin's demands, the Nazis will not lay down their arms - because they know that there will be no captivity, they will be physically destroyed.
President Zelensky is not on the Russian list of war criminals of Ukraine, precisely because he does not decide anything.
As for NATO - it was created not to protect poor Europeans, but to destroy Russia, in order to seize resources that you have almost no left. Gas, right?
When Russia disappears on global map (in the inflamed mind of your Nazi governors) you will be able to control the whole world "By bringing democracy here and there. That's what you guys do all the time, isn't it?
Here I see at least three assumptions: first, the assumption that this is an ethnic conflict; secondly, that this is a conflict between Russians and fascists; and thirdly, the Nazis control Ukraine and Russia's goal is to destroy the Nazis.
Firstly, the conflict is not ethnic, here one sovereign state invaded the territory of another sovereign state, which began to resist the invasion. This is a conflict of states, where the ethnic component does not play a very big role. The huge chunk of Ukrainian armed forces consists of Russian speakers (including those from Donbas). As for the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine, - this population, by the way, is most concentrated in the east and in the center of the Ukraine. Now, thanks to the efforts of Russian artillery and missiles, it is precisely the regions with a high percentage of Russian speakers who are suffering the greatest hardships, and entire cities (Popasna, Severodonetsk, and partly Mariupol) are being wiped off the ground due to Russian artillery attacks. I believe that in light of this, the loyalty of the population of these regions to Russia will ... slightly decrease.
Secondly, the influence of right-wing and ultra-right organizations and parties in Ukraine has always been relatively low: for example, the nationalist Svoboda party was not even able to get into parliament in the last elections. The Azov regiment also had a low level of social support before the war. President Poroshenko, who used militaristic rhetoric, lost the last presidential election to Zelensky, who used more universalist and populist rhetoric. It does not mean that the influence of right-wing and ultra-right organizations is negligible - this is not so. They harassed activists (including left-wing activists), attacked gypsies, marched in protests against any attempts to negotiate with the separatist enclaves (DPR and LPR). They pose huge problem to Ukraine because the police and the courts did not always investigate such cases. But at the same time, they did not have and do not have the support of the population of Ukraine as a whole, and are poorly represented in the Ukrainian parliament. Ukraine cannot be called a fascist state, and the Russian leadership is well aware of this, no matter what it feeds to Russian public.
Therefore, thirdly, the point is not really about fascism and not about a nuclear bomb (which Ukraine never had and does not have) - these are just reasons for the invasion, means of justifying it. Russia is simply trying to redefine the world order and become the third center of power, right after the US and China. As part of such a policy, it needs to consolidate around itself the countries that in Russia are considered as part of its sphere of influence. Those are Ukraine, Belarus, the South Caucasus (Armenia, Georgia and even Azerbaijan) and the countries of Central Asia - Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan. And this is completely right-wing and imperial policy, sometimes close to nazist ideology. Various fictional (fascism in Ukraine and the "nuclear bomb" of Ukraine) and valid (American colonial and proxy wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya) statements are used in Russian propaganda to justify such aggressive policy ("US did that - so we also can"). If these countries try to resist (like Ukraine and Georgia), an artificial pretext is invented to justify the invasion for the population of Russia.
In his post, Soul Tear talks about "honest experts who are silenced in the West". He presumes that we should listen, and not silence them. This can only be welcomed - if he himself followed his own advice. But, unfortunately, he himself repeats the clichés of Russian propaganda without attempting to critically comprehend what Russian TV says. And this is definitely a tragedy of him.
Qooper on 4/12/2022 at 01:25
Quote Posted by Tomi
I thought that alt accounts are against rules in here?
They are, but this one seems to at least provide us with some laffs. Let's wait and see if it writes again :D
Quote Posted by Soul Tear
Russia, not Putin, will never allow Ukraine to join NATO. I am a part of Russia, and I will not allow it either.
We here in Finland were able to join just fine despite Putin's loud barking, and once the NATO application was sent, the barking stopped. A few weeks later a rather meek Putin said something to the effect of "This is fine, I didn't care anyways." Russia allowed Finland to join, and once Russia loses the war, it will allow Ukraine to join as well.
Quote:
Rockets from Kharkov will reach Moscow in less than 3 minutes. Therefore, NATO will not be in Ukraine. Never.
Firstly, NATO is a defensive alliance that any country is free to apply to join. Secondly, if Russia hadn't posed a growing threat, there wouldn't be a need for more countries to join. Thirdly, once Finland's NATO application is processed and our membership finalized, Russia's common border with NATO will grow by 1340km. Missiles from, say, Lappeenranta will be able to reach Moscow in 5min. We will never attack of course, but the fact is that Russia will allow this.
Quote:
Your leaders want to impress upon you that Putin is a Demon and the Russians are savages, with only one goal - that any actions of your governments are justified.
No, Putin gives that image all by himself. Russia
does have only one goal, and it is to spread its precious Mir. We don't want it on our side of the lawn, thanks.
Quote:
As for NATO - it was created not to protect poor Europeans, but to destroy Russia, in order to seize resources that you have almost no left. Gas, right?
When Russia disappears on global map (in the inflamed mind of your Nazi governors) you will be able to control the whole world "By bringing democracy here and there. That's what you guys do all the time, isn't it?
Like I mentioned before, NATO was created to be a defensive alliance against any military threat against any of its members. Currently the biggest threat is Russia, but I'm sure NATO acts as a deterrent against a North Korean attack as well. Where are you getting this "destroy Russia" nonsense? A defensive alliance means that it will never invade or conquer another nation. And we have enough resources of our own, thanks once again. You can keep yours. We just recommend not burning all your gas into thin air. In August/September the torch flame at the Russian compressor station was so tall that it was seen all the way from Finland. Try selling your gas instead :D
Starker on 4/12/2022 at 02:00
Quote Posted by michael a
Therefore, thirdly, the point is not really about fascism and not about a nuclear bomb (which Ukraine never had and does not have) ...
Ukraine once did have the nuclear bomb -- in fact, it was the third most powerful nuclear power in the world after they inherited a third of the Soviet arsenal after the dissolution of the USSR. It voluntarily destroyed them in return of security assurances from the Russian Federation that it would, among other things, respect Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity -- AKA the Budapest Memorandum: (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)
The argument that Ukraine could possibly maybe seek nuclear weapons comes from the fact that after Russia very clearly and repeatedly violated the agreements, Ukraine might theoretically some day try to start developing nuclear weapons, since it's not really beholden to the memorandum any more. However, Ukraine has shown no indication they intend to do it, there is no significant political movement in Ukraine that supports it, and it is not really something you can start up all that easily, especially given that Ukraine never had a nuclear weapons program.
Pyrian on 4/12/2022 at 02:20
Funny how we're suddenly re-addressing Soul Tear's post from back in March. Well, as long as we're here, I'd like to comment on part of it:
Quote:
No one has the right to be in NATO after the 1997 treaty. An agreement on non-expansion of NATO was signed. You had to keep your end of the bargain.
Every part of this is nonsense.
Here's the document Soul Tear is referring to: (
https://www.nato.int/cps/cn/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm)
The document is not a signed treaty and carries no legal weight. It is a statement of principles and intent. Even given that, the document does not prohibit the expansion of NATO. ...In fact it specifically allows it. Instead it says things like "The member States of NATO reiterate that they have no intention, no plan and no reason to deploy nuclear weapons on the territory of new members..." Notice that there is no "will never" in these (and related) clauses. That is hardly some sort of binding agreement; Russia has given more than a little provocation. And yet,
and yet, NATO has in fact
stood by those parts of the agreement despite Russia abrogating wide swaths of the agreement (e.g. repeatedly invading Ukraine, clearly prohibited therein). And frankly, a lot of people (especially the new NATO members) are less than thrilled with NATO continuing to abide by this agreement that Russia has long since abandoned:
(
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3514801-nato-russia-its-time-to-suspend-the-founding-act/) NATO-Russia: It's time to suspend the Founding Act
(
https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/71385) The NATO-Russia Founding Act: A Dead Letter
Starker on 4/12/2022 at 03:11
Very funny to see how poorly his posts have aged, though. Especially with the retreat from Kherson and the subsequent massive celebrations. Somehow, nothing like this happened in March when Russians took control of the city. No big crowds of people waving Russian flags, for some reason. People didn't come up to Russian soldiers to hug their liberators. In fact, there were protests with Ukrainian flags.
demagogue on 4/12/2022 at 03:20
Quote Posted by Starker
The argument that Ukraine could possibly maybe seek nuclear weapons comes from the fact that after Russia very clearly and repeatedly violated the agreements, Ukraine might theoretically some day try to start developing nuclear weapons, since it's not really beholden to the memorandum any more.
Yes, it's like the proverbial kid that kills his parents, and then when he goes before the judge he plays the victim card and pleads "Have mercy on me. I'm an orphan!" Putin is such a cartoon villain.
lowenz on 4/12/2022 at 12:17
Quote Posted by demagogue
Putin is such a cartoon villain.
With 6000 nuclear warheads sadly there's nothing cartoonish.
That's the ONLY problem about Russia, Putin and the future russian fascism.
Qooper on 4/12/2022 at 18:05
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Funny how we're suddenly re-addressing Soul Tear's post from back in March.
It's Karras' fault. Besides, I think it's good target practice.
demagogue on 5/12/2022 at 01:57
I don't know exactly where Macron is coming from -- in playing up giving Russia security concessions in a deal despite it being the aggressor state, and despite NATO being defensive only -- but I found it interesting how history seems to be casting a long shadow. Whatever the realpolitik pros or cons of it, France's role in the Cold War was perceived to be a non-aligned "voice of reason", going at lengths to play up just how non-aligned it was, which was always maddening at least to the Anglo-sphere. I thought this was kind of a replay of that old dynamic.
