lowenz on 26/2/2022 at 22:03
Quote Posted by serg_kundel
mind-illed Nazis terrorist and protect our Ukraine territory.
It's just a KGB-rised liar and puppetmaster (you can't believe how Putin's propaganda is rooted here in Italy too, it's crazy) from the Cold War era, having a great, gigantic, "male" fascination over desperate people as the ultimate
dux (more than POTUS to 'muricans).
Please forgive russians blinded by him, they can't understand how they're constantly manipulated by old KGB people now controlling the "democratic" (ahah) state with old tricks. They can't realize the real dimension of this "game". Just see the fake, theatrical interactions between Putin and his own staff of "stupid buracrats" humiliated every single time through RT (Russia Today TV) just to elevate Putin to a "titan" figure. It's all fake but it works well to create and feed the
deus ex machina myth.
hopper on 26/2/2022 at 22:32
Quote Posted by Jashin
I'm a normal person who knows just enough to know the mainstream version is leading me to the wrong conclusion, so I go and do more research. I have the common sense to know something big doesn't just happen in 1 day, there's always a buildup. It helps to be multi-lingual, multi-literate to break through the wall of information control, but it's not a requirement. And honestly it doesn't take very much digging before the kind of information surfaces that will call into doubt the stories that are being pushed in the MSM. The information is in plain sight, although some of it is cloaked in jargons and doublespeak.
A cursory dig into the situation in Ukraine showed me the current situation can be traced back to 2004 Ukrainian presidential election, and the (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution) Orange Revolution, in which the losing candidate accused the winner of election fraud, and wins in the rerun. That's the start of Ukraine's drift from being a neutral state between big powers. The key is the people involved. That candidate, (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko#Family_and_personal_life) Viktor Yushchenko 6 years before had married a (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kateryna_Yushchenko) US state dept. worker who was sent to run an US-funded NGO in the newly independent Ukraine. This planted the seed that was later followed up by the (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan) 2014 Euromaidan which installed (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Poroshenko) Petro Poroshenko, whereby the real trouble started. A lot of it and more is covered in the (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbj1AR_aAcE) John Mearsheimer video from Feb 21, just 3 days before the start of the war. What he did not say was how much Ukrainian economy, already bad from 20 years of mismanagement & outside influences, crashed following Poroshenko's entering into office, how he gave key govt. jobs to foreigners (Americans) and together they hollowed out the country, leading to a 10% drop in GDP in 2015, 5 million workers losing their job, the country being called "The Womb of Europe," etc., allowing neo-nazism to take root in that misery.
A lot has happened in the 8 years since which brings the current situation into focus, and goes to explain why Russia, faced with existing sanctions since 2014 (warfare by economic means) and the mother of all sanctions after, still sent troops in. The question one asks is, "Why, what is at stake for them?" The Minsk II was the last chance for peace, but alas... If you do some research it becomes plain as day. Knowing all this and more, the "Crazy Putin" theory doesn't hold any water.
Domestically, the ones at the top of the government (of both dem and rep) are loving it. They got two sibling countries fighting each other, capital leaving Europe back to US, and you folks have had your attention diverted from real issues at home like the wealth inequity, homelessness, crumbling infrastructure, etc. etc. chest-pumping, red in the eyes, thinking that the world is as simple as good guy and bad guy.
So far, you haven't provided even a single instance of all those mainstream media lies you go on about. Instead we get half-baked conspiracy theories about how Ukraine's drift towards the west is really orchestrated by the US because Yushchenko is married to an American NGO worker, a non-sequitur about how "a lot" that happened in the last 8 years supposedly explains why Russia sent troops in, followed by the utter horseshit that the US government loves this war. And you didn't fail to bring up the conspiracy theorists' gold standard: "do some research."
Putin denies Ukraine's right to exist as an independent country, plain and simple. He considers the breakup of the Soviet Union to be the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, and he considers control over Ukraine to be Russia's birthright. We know this because he's gone to great lengths to explain in his own words directly to the people that this is how he thinks. Nobody wanted this war. Not the USA, not Europe, certainly not Ukraine, and most likely neither did most Russians. Only Putin wanted this. He and no one else.
Tocky on 26/2/2022 at 22:43
Quote Posted by serg_kundel
I want once again to thank everyone, who helps us to stop that crazy, mind-illed Nazis terrorist and protect our Ukraine territory.
GLORY TO UKRAINE!
СЛАВА УКРАЇНІ!
If we don't then we truly aren't worth a damn. I feel guilt that we haven't already done more. May you never run low on ammo, brother.
lowenz on 26/2/2022 at 22:46
Quote Posted by hopper
Instead we get half-baked conspiracy theories about how Ukraine's drift towards the west is really orchestrated by the US because Yushchenko is married to an American NGO worker, a non-sequitur about how "a lot" that happened in the last 8 years supposedly explains why Russia sent troops in, followed by the utter horseshit that the US government loves this war. And you didn't fail to bring up the conspiracy theorists' gold standard: "do some research."
There's no need of Yushchenko and his wife and classic&elegant "geopolitical" conspiracies - hey nbohr :D - when you got "grey eminence" characters like Kolomoyskyi (backing Yushchenko) fighting Putin loyalist oligarchs (like Abramovich).
Still Putin, far from being "mad", is the most
directly dangerous man in Europe. Just remember that Alexey Navalny's "medic" died 'cause Navalny has not.
lowenz on 26/2/2022 at 22:54
Quote Posted by hopper
Putin denies Ukraine's right to exist as an independent country, plain and simple. He considers the breakup of the Soviet Union to be the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, and he considers control over Ukraine to be Russia's birthright. We know this because he's gone to great lengths to explain in his own words directly to the people that this is how he thinks. Nobody wanted this war. Not the USA, not Europe, certainly not Ukraine, and most likely neither did most Russians. Only Putin wanted this. He and no one else.
It's more complex than that.
Putin thinks the Russian Federation must NOT be tied to USSR experiment (it hates it and it hates Lenin for not being a "patriot" but a "traitor" just like Krushev in '54 ), he thinks the Russian Federation must be the new Rome of Eurasia, being the Ukraine what Tuscany ( (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruria) ) was to Rome.
Putin hates every single part of the "soviet" ideology, and its "anti-nationalism" over all the other aspects. It's why he prefer to call the ukrainian nationalists
Banderovtsi or in western-fashion "nazis". He think itself the "ultimate" patriot, the true pure nationalist.....ending to be a Stalin-like "democratic" tyrant.
lowenz on 27/2/2022 at 00:02
Yes, but he did say that because he thinks that USSR was never meant to be a "union" of "soviet" republic
s but a monolitic republican version of russian empire being that the legacy of Rome and Christianity (of course orthodox christianity for Putin).
He named Lenin 'cause Lenin was for the
union of free republics - as the old communist anthem says - and that's treason (division in more entities) for him. The problem for Putin is not about "communist" economy, is in its anti-nationalism that he sees as a degeneration of russian civilisation.
It's why he can't accept Ukraine byebye to Russia for UE and NATO. For him the only true nationalism is the russian nationalism, ALL the other nationalisms are seen as anti-nationalistic degeneration put in motion by the "communist foolishness".
Putin is a "christian Stalin".
rachel on 27/2/2022 at 01:18
Quote Posted by Jashin
It ends the same way, as the Afghans before him, and the Kurds before that, so on.
War is ugly business, people caught up in it that doesn't get a choice. To be for peace one has to know why it's happening and what let to it.
I understand not everyone can or wants to break through the information control. I did little other than post some information available anywhere.
It is what it is. A few will be thoughtful and engage the thinking cap.
You make absolutely no sense at all. Do you have any clue who Salvador Allende is, and why I drew a parallel between (
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende%27s_Last_Speech) him and Zelensky's words?
faetal on 27/2/2022 at 02:17
Quote Posted by Jashin
the mainstream version is leading me to the wrong conclusion
This intuitive idea of "wrong" may be the seed of confirmation bias.
Quote:
so I go and do more research.
All you have posted is wikipedia & YouTube links.
Quote:
The information is in plain sight, although some of it is cloaked in jargons and doublespeak.
Give examples.
For your counter to the "crazy Putin" theory, all I see is this:
Quote:
Domestically, the ones at the top of the government (of both dem and rep) are loving it.
They got two sibling countries fighting each other, capital leaving Europe back to US, and you folks have had your attention diverted from real issues at home like the wealth inequity, homelessness, crumbling infrastructure, etc. etc. chest-pumping, red in the eyes, thinking that the world is as simple as good guy and bad guy.
Any evidence to show that this was in some way fomented or encouraged by the US government?
Jason Moyer on 27/2/2022 at 02:42
If I've learned one thing this week, it's that Ukrainians are hard as fuck.
[video=youtube;L17Bi7zBJHI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L17Bi7zBJHI[/video]