lowenz on 21/9/2022 at 09:47
No one would nuke Moscow for a "small" (some kilotons) DEMON-strative (...) nuke deployed in Ukraine. That's the problem. And the limit.
michael a on 21/9/2022 at 09:56
Since the Cold War, nukes always were in question. But there reasons why they would not be used by Russia. So-called "tactical" nukes are still very dangerous to use and still have large damage radius to use them on Donbas or Kherson. If used, they would bring destruction not only to UA army but also to locals whom Russia tries to "liberate". And to Rus army as well. It could result in some protests and uprisings in Russia itself - that will complement protests against mobilization and going awol. As for "Big" nukes - well, it really will go to confrontation with NATO so it will possibly result in Judgement Day. I doubt Putin will do it.
lowenz on 21/9/2022 at 10:09
Russia is using the "liberation" as "narrative". They're of course NOT interested in ACTUAL people, but in the "russian people" as pure notion. For sake of "history".
Just how US is interested in "universal rights" and "freedom". It's a travesty, a theater scene.
They're "grand narratives", real actual people involved doesn't have any importance. It's how a "democratic state" works in reality.
Starker on 21/9/2022 at 12:12
If Russia uses nukes, the US would be under a great pressure to retaliate, because for future's sake it cannot allow a nuclear power to get away with it while the other nuclear powers are watching. I'm sure there are already options presented to Biden. This doesn't mean a nuclear exchange, necessarily, but, for example, the destruction of Russia's naval fleet or Russian bases outside of Russia. It would be relatively easy for the US to do.
Even if the US doesn't retaliate by military means, it would ensure that Russia will become a pariah. Even Beijing will distance itself. They will essentially become North Korea, but without the support of a larger country. Any remaining support Putin has currently would evaporate inside and outside of Russia. I'd go on a limb and wager a guess that the vast majority of Russians don't want to see their family starve in a nuclear winter, despite some of the pundits on Russian TV seemingly craving the sweet embrace of death. And that includes the people at the very top of the military ladder that are carrying out Putin's orders so far and a lot of people with very close access to Putin, physically.
Threatening to use nuclear weapons is one thing -- it doesn't cost you anything. Actually using nuclear weapons is another thing entirely.
lowenz on 21/9/2022 at 12:22
USA and NATO can't retaliate for a nuke in Ukraine by any means. If they do, Europe will be no more.
lowenz on 21/9/2022 at 12:24
Quote Posted by Starker
pundits on Russian TV seemingly craving the sweet embrace of death
It's called "breath of the empire", like DUGINA did tell us. It's the exact expression. Did you remember how the militaristic Japan was? That's the same now in Russia.
For me, Novorossiya [i.e., Eastern Ukraine] is a space of philosophical meaning. It is Russia's empire-forming space, and it is thanks to this frontier horizon that we exist as Russia: What's more, an unvanquished Russia, a Russia risen against the totalitarian liberalism that is being imposed all over the world. . . . It is there that the right attitudes toward life and death, toward self and other, have been constructed; it is there that the meanings of our empire are being formed. . . . One must go to Novorossiya to learn what life is, to learn how one should live, to learn what the breath of empire is and what empire is. . . . It is created to awaken us.They really believe in this, like good fascists always do. That's exactly the mindset Mussolini and Gentile wanted for us here in Italy. As I've said, we got *SCHOOLS* to teach the "revolutionaries" those words during Fascism -> (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_mysticism)
It's nothing new for us, that's the past we've escaped (but a good number of italian putinists want it back and it's why they *LOVE* Putin like little girls, they want this kind of spiritualistic mystic fascism back against the "evil liberalism" of USA and...."Albion" )
heywood on 21/9/2022 at 12:33
The nuke threat is not credible. Nuclear weapons are the only deterrent Russia has left. They are off the table unless another nuclear power attacks Russia directly, and nobody is going to do that.
And unlike chemical or biological weapons, if they use nukes, they can't blame it on the Ukrainians.
lowenz on 21/9/2022 at 12:42
Thet don't need anymore ukrainians "nazi" as scapegoats. The war is against us "Evil West".
Re-read :D
a Russia risen against the totalitarian liberalism that is being imposed all over the world. . . . It is there that the right attitudes toward life and death
Ukrainians are just middlemen for this "roman late republic culture (Russia) vs roman late empire civilization (USA+UK)" clash. That's the mindset. That's why they want a "renewed by russian culture" empire instead of the "decadent" one represented by western civilization.
US citizens can't realize this kind of mindset, it's too away from their own.
Starker on 21/9/2022 at 12:42
I mean, if there was a death cult surrounding Putin and citizens and leaders in Russia alike treated him as god, I could see that happening. But there is no evidence of that. Willing to die defending your country is one thing, collective suicide is something very different. It means you are willing to sacrifice everything -- your children, your future, the continued existence of humanity.
demagogue on 21/9/2022 at 12:47
Yes, but it also depends on Putin's state of mind, which may be going very south very soon, and how willing and able his handlers are to stop him if he goes off the deep end. It's not really a "they" we're talking about. He'll have his stupid referendum just in time to start getting booted out of newly annexed territory, and that sounds like it could get messier than it has been.
Also if he's mobilizing, it's not very credibly "not a war" anymore, and the population may start turning against him, which in his deluded state he might also take as western infiltration in his own backyard.
I don't know if it's gonna be nukes per se, but it seems like it's going to be very messy whatever it is.
Edit: Okay, I just got double ninja'd, but you should all get that I'm replying to heywood.