Nicker on 25/2/2022 at 14:26
I'm not saying it is easy but the choice seems to be fight the fascists now or do it later, when they have entrenched themselves and have perverted the mechanisms of government and elections.
Nicker on 25/2/2022 at 14:29
NATO and the UN are purely defensive against aggressive war. That doesn't mean being complacent in the face of aggression, even by members of that alliance. If not, then what are NATO and the UN supposed to defend against?
Jason Moyer on 25/2/2022 at 15:05
Quote Posted by lowenz
You can't stop crazy people saying "FAKE" with ANY kind of document. That's the main problem in the world today.
I'm 100% certain both sides are and will continue to use propaganda to gain sympathy for their cause, but yeah. Part of the problem, at least in this country, is that so much news consists of editorializing and the average person isn't intelligent enough to distinguish between the reporting of events and opinions. We used to have regulations requiring any broadcast editorial content to be accompanied by at least one alternate viewpoint, and basically when those were removed we ended up with Fox News presenting one opinion over and over, then CNN slowly began copying their sensationalist editorial style, now we have a million "news" sources that are nonstop stream of opinions. This is why I stick to NPR and BBC, which makes most of my British friends laugh because apparently they're viewed as massively conservative.
WingedKagouti on 25/2/2022 at 16:07
Quote Posted by Nicker
NATO and the UN are
purely defensive against
aggressive war. That doesn't mean being complacent in the face of aggression, even by members of that alliance. If not, then what are NATO and the UN supposed to defend against?
NATO only defends members, it doesn't go out seeking fights. Ukraine isn't a member.
Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council
and can veto any proposed UN action against Russia.
catbarf on 25/2/2022 at 18:56
Quote Posted by Nicker
NATO and the UN are
purely defensive against
aggressive war. That doesn't mean being complacent in the face of aggression, even by members of that alliance. If not, then what are NATO and the UN supposed to defend against?
Leaving aside that NATO is a purely defensive organization that has only mobilized a handful of times- three no-fly zones to support UNSC resolutions in peacekeeping operations, and once in support of an Article 5 invocation, IE defending a member under attack- NATO military intervention is off the table to begin with. (
https://acoup.blog/2022/02/25/miscellanea-understanding-the-war-in-ukraine/) This post has a good summary near the beginning, but the tl;dr is that the sort of military support that the US and allies provided in Syria (let alone a conventional boots-on-the-ground involvement) is likely to lead to escalation against a near-peer adversary, and nobody's anxious for a nuclear exchange. Putin understands this, understands how NATO works, and will not provoke a NATO response, so NATO member states can aid the Ukrainians indirectly without risk of escalation.
Tocky on 25/2/2022 at 19:04
Quote Posted by Jashin
When I realized they not only lie, but they make boldface lies that are repeated a thousand times across government-funded medias and NGOs, citing each other, cross-referencing each other, promoting narratives they predetermine to manufacture consent in the populace, that was a through-the-looking-glass moment for me. Intelligence also uses news clearinghouses like AP, Reuters, and a French one I forget the name of, to disseminate their narratives, and then mainstream media, overwhelmingly privately-owned, picks them up and repeats them. State media like UK's BBC will say/not say whatever the establishment wants, although this is pretty typical.
You have convinced me comrade. The AP and Reuters are propaganda though they are the most trusted news in the world. Only Pravda and Putin tell the truth. Any fool can see that Russia is beset by enemies on all sides and has no choice but to invade the world.
Jashin on 25/2/2022 at 19:52
Quote Posted by Tocky
You have convinced me comrade. The AP and Reuters are propaganda though they are the most trusted news in the world. Only Pravda and Putin tell the truth. Any fool can see that Russia is beset by enemies on all sides and has no choice but to invade the world.
Nobody wants to or even tried to convince you. I mean you can't even read what I wrote correctly. Only thing you did with a hint of thought is to selective quote what I wrote.
Me: Intelligence uses clearinghouses to embed and disseminate narratives.
You: AP, Reuters are propaganda.
The world is a complex place, only a fool thinks in 100% absolutes. High-level interactions between and within countries are invisible to the average person, which makes media's take so influential for better or worse.
But hey, don't let me call you out, you're one of them redpills, and you know the truth!
Tocky on 25/2/2022 at 20:36
Clearly your publishers clearinghouse intelligence with high level truth invisible to the average person or any person has beaten me. Surely one must trust Matrix quotes over reality.
Edit: Damn. I ran him off. Come back! I was just Jashin! It's getting so you can't hint that you know why folks are trying to discredit legitimate news at a time when Putin is trying to twist it to his favor.
Come back baby. I didn't mean it. You still have Italy like the fuhrer did!
demagogue on 26/2/2022 at 04:18
So f I understand Putin's strategy here, he's trying to fast track his neighbors into joining NATO? Because it seems like the one incentive not to join was that you had some assurance you wouldn't get invaded by Russia by not joining... and now that means nothing.
Or as the meme puts it:
Inline Image:
https://i.ibb.co/C94kG8m/274739214-10166147230780483-5751136009179958028-n.jpg